Posted by dawnbixtler on 2005-04-04 01:43:10 +0000
Fully agreed.
Not a saint.
Posted by frame609 on 2005-04-04 03:54:32 +0000
I'll argue- he and Mother Teresa are right up there.
Posted by pamsterdam on 2005-04-04 06:49:32 +0000
OK, I have a question for my delightful Catholic friends.
I understand from a (Protestant and admittedly German) religious studies MA that PJPTS (Pope John Paul The Second) was a very conservative Pope (brought in to replace a very liberal Pope who died "mysteriously" 2 weeks into his Popedom/Popeship/Popeness) and that anyone who would replace him would be even more conservative and (even) reactionary. BUT my best friend the Catholic Amy (Miss Holmes if you're nasty) always used to say how liberal a Pope PJPTS was, and that within the context of the Catholic Church as a whole he was pretty open-minded as much as could be expected from, you know, a Pope.
So I'm really interested to hear your view(s), as I have a lot of respect for y'all. Thank you!
PTDOBACA (Pam, the daughter of Baptists, and current agnostic)
Posted by frame609 on 2005-04-04 07:26:45 +0000
I can see the conservative slant- he was certainly very pro-life, and very anti-gay marriage, which are pillars of Amercian conservatism (or, at the very least, are usually considered to be as such.) Those are two things I can't see the Catholic Church budging on. He also talked shit about Buddhism.
Having said that, though, John Paul was Polish, right, and totally helped out Lech Walesa and Solidarity back in the late seventies/early eighties (doing so in secret for a time.) Plus, he was the guy who basically told the Jews that Catholics worldwide fucked up and should have tried harder stop the Holocaust. Heavy stuff that doesn't strike me as conservative at all.
Posted by pamsterdam on 2005-04-04 10:15:58 +0000
Makes perfect sense to me. Thanks, Mike. I have of late felt a bit funny, as most people I speak to over here about the Pope are anti-Pope, whereas I have always been pro-PJPTS and don't see the problem with him. I've even heard several people claim that because the Vatican made a press release which stated that condoms don't protect you from AIDS, PJPTS is somehow culpable for the continuation of the AIDS epidemic in Africa, which I think is ridiculous. To my understanding, PJPTS just made a press release saying that abstinence before marriage is the only 100% protection against AIDS, which admittedly furthers the Catholic aim of eliminating sex outside of (heterosexual) marriage, but is also essentially true - [i]although I feel duty-bound to state here that responsible condom use in a monogamous relationship, until HIV status can be determined, is "safe sex"[/i]. So I really don't see what the beef is with PJPTS.
I'll go back to defending il Papa.
Posted by rladew on 2005-04-04 12:43:53 +0000
Im w/ you on this Mike. I understnad so little of Catholicsm, it's baffling, but he studied clandestine in Poland to avoid the Nazis, travelled the world tirelessly and brought hope to millions. I know his political agenda doesn't fit everyone's, but this was a good man...
_______________________________
Posted by tgl on 2005-04-04 13:59:52 +0000
Where are the conservatives here? frame609 is basically claiming that the rollback of Communism and resistance to genocide are anathema to conservatism.
I think of JP2 as more of a traditionalist than a conservative. Maybe pamsterdam could post on the differences between European conservatism and American conservatism (aka Christian Theocracy). Yes, JP2 believed condoms/women priests/gay marriage where all things that could get one burned in hell. Hell, he even believed one could burn in hell.
That aside, his principles were obvious. While he may not have supported equal rights, he was staunchly for human rights. One of the things people "admire" about G.W.Bush is that they believe they know where he stands, even if they disagree with him. I find that laughable. I contrast G.W. with JP2... which one speaks from the heart?
Posted by pamsterdam on 2005-04-04 14:58:59 +0000
tgl wrote: [i]Maybe pamsterdam could post on the differences between European conservatism and American conservatism (aka Christian Theocracy)[/i].
Hm. I'm not sure I can respond to that request to my satisfaction here (I'd need a bibliography), but I can try to give you a response which might be helpful in this instance. The Europeans I know who have declaimed PJPTS as "very conservative" were referring to him within the context of modern European society, not within the context of Catholicism or even more appropriately within the context of the Catholic Church as an institution. And I think that's unfair.
To address what you say about frame609 misappropriating the word "conservative", in his defense I can say that [i]I personally believe that[/i] liberals see "liberal" as being "good and righteous" and "conservative" as being "reactionary and heartless". Now, before you leap at my throat, teeth bared, [i]I also personally believe that[/i] conservatives see "conservative" as being "good and righteous" and "liberal" as being "irrational and irresponsible". I might be wrong, maybe this is just my perspective... perhaps an irrational and irresponsible one...
Posted by Honar the librarian on 2005-04-04 15:22:27 +0000
My understanding is that jp2 was conservative in terms of his attitude towards the reforms (or intended reforms) made at Vatican II, such as an active role for women in the liturgy, support for liberation theology and a greater role for the laiety. (Although the whole Jews aren't deicide thing happened in the mid 60's during v2, so he didn't repudiate it in its entirety). An example of a parish church that tends to see itself as a standard bearer for reforms (or, at least, it used to, I'm a little out of touch) is the [url=http://www.paulist.org/boston/]Paulist Center in Boston[/url].
Posted by tgl on 2005-04-04 15:41:56 +0000
Re: liberation theology
One thing that cropped up during the weekends coverage was how poor a view the Vatican had of those religious & laity working with the poor against totalitarian regimes in South America. I always assumed that the Church supported that kind of work.
I suppose they do, just not to the extent of armed discontent.
Posted by tgl on 2005-04-04 15:44:34 +0000
I don't think frame609 misappropriated the label. I wanted to point out that undermining Communism and being opposed to genocide aren't "liberal" ideas... especially the Communism part.
Maybe I'm being a bit to gracious to those who adhere to a conservative viewpoint, since I'm probably still regarded as a shill for the French.
Posted by pamsterdam on 2005-04-04 15:53:00 +0000
Well, that depends on what you mean by "liberal", doesn't it? I mean, are we talking about American politics or world politics here? American conservatives are (ostensibly) anti-genocide and pro-democracy. On a global scale, those are liberal viewpoints, aren't they? From www.dictionary.com:
con·ser·va·tive (adj.)
Pronunciation Key (kn-sûrv-tv)
1. Favoring traditional views and values; tending to oppose change.
2. Moderate; cautious
lib·er·al (adj.)
Pronunciation Key (lbr-l, lbrl)
1. Not limited to or by established, traditional, orthodox, or authoritarian attitudes, views, or dogmas; free from bigotry.
2. Favoring proposals for reform, open to new ideas for progress, and tolerant of the ideas and behavior of others; broad-minded.
*
Oh, and that website didn't help me out with "shill" by the way - ???
shill (n.)
Pronunciation Key (shl) Slang
One who poses as a satisfied customer or an enthusiastic gambler to dupe bystanders into participating in a swindle.
Posted by dawnbixtler on 2005-04-04 15:55:06 +0000
I was just about to post that.
PJP2 lived through the repression of the Nazi's and then the totalitarian communism of Poland. The later, PJP2 and Jimmy Carter were adamant about taking a stand against in the late 1970's and essentially destroyed.
I completely understand PJP2's dislike of all things socialism, but it led to an almost cynical view of Latin America's poor Catholics and Archbishop Oscar Romero specifically. One wonders how empowered the poor of Central and South America could have gotten with the Pope's support.
Posted by dawnbixtler on 2005-04-04 16:02:59 +0000
2 million show up for the Pope tribute -- 3 million showed up for the Red Sox victory Parade. Make your own conclusions.
Posted by tgl on 2005-04-04 16:06:13 +0000
St. Damon of the Perpetually Hirsute
Posted by tendiamonds on 2005-04-04 16:15:02 +0000
Anyone know any good dead pope jokes?
Posted by tendiamonds on 2005-04-04 16:15:29 +0000
What's the pope grow in his orchards?
Posted by tendiamonds on 2005-04-04 16:15:42 +0000
Nothing, he's dead.
Posted by tendiamonds on 2005-04-04 16:16:06 +0000
How do you get the pope into a casket?
Posted by tendiamonds on 2005-04-04 16:16:21 +0000
You take off his hat.
Posted by tgl on 2005-04-04 16:17:05 +0000
OK, maybe we should be taking about "Big L" Liberalism and "Big C" Conservatism instead of liberal & conservative.
I guess it's all semantics, and label fitting, which one might be quicker to reject in the realm of, music, say. For instance, there's a difference between the conservatives at the London School of Economics and the conservatives at the U. of Chicago. What that is, I couldn't tell ya, maybe Honar knows.
Il Papa was conservative in the little 'c' mold. Yes! I wholeheartedly agree. The thing I'm trying to say is: JP2 ain't no Jerry Falwell/Bob Jones/Tom DeLay conservative. That's all. The difference is probably simlar to what one might see contrasting American style conservatism with that of conservatism found in worldly circles.
Just the use of the phrase "World politics" is at cross-puposes with current American conservatives. JP2 was definitely a multi-lateralist.
Additionally: "Big C" Conservatives (aka Republicans in the US) were more adamantly for the downfall of Communism (also Big C) than were "Big L" Liberals of that era.
I think dictionary.com did alright with shill.
Posted by tgl on 2005-04-04 16:17:50 +0000
Say you have five dead popes on a basketball court...
Posted by tgl on 2005-04-04 16:18:13 +0000
Wait... there's only one dead pope.
Posted by tendiamonds on 2005-04-04 16:29:49 +0000
A naked blonde, a whale and a dead pope walk into a bar and there's a monkey sitting at the end of it. The blonde says, "Excuse me, do you serve crabs?" The bartender replies, "Where's your poodle and two foot salami?" The dead pope asks, "Why do you have a monkey at your fucking bar?"... no wait... dead popes can't talk.
Posted by tgl on 2005-04-04 16:53:54 +0000
...and then the parachute opened.
Posted by pamsterdam on 2005-04-04 17:18:17 +0000
Are you calling the French swindlers? They're our oldest allies and [i]should[/i] still be considered as such.
Your additional commentary there brings up an interesting point, and you're right - liberals who fiddle-faddled over what Liberalism should be (pro- or anti-Communist) pussyfooted around for so long that Conservatives (at least in the public eye) affected progressive change on a meaningful level before the liberals/progressives had a look in.
Oh, and yes - if the Pope is the most conservative thing Catholicism has to offer, I'll take it over Protestantism any day of the week.
Posted by tendiamonds on 2005-04-04 17:28:32 +0000
Man, I can't get enough of this... like him or not, I just love dead popes.
Posted by tgl on 2005-04-04 17:35:31 +0000
JP2 is the best dead pope, __ever__.
Posted by dawnbixtler on 2005-04-04 17:37:14 +0000
Nice...
Posted by frame609 on 2005-04-04 18:02:21 +0000
Pope on a rope! Get it?
I was going to defend myself, but I forget what for.