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Posted by dawnbixtler on 2005-05-16 15:49:50 +0000

[url=http://www.bullmooseblog.com/]The moose[/url] makes a great point: "Perhaps Newsweek is only following Rummy's example."

Posted by tgl on 2005-05-16 16:07:31 +0000

Further irony: the freedom loving peoples of Afghanistan are calling for the ban of Newsweek and the arrest & punishment of those that are guilty of desecrating... a book.

Posted by rladew on 2005-05-16 17:33:49 +0000

Newsweek hasn't had anything interesting to say since they once said: . "And then the Monkey's Eyes, become YOUR eyes!" . I'm always surprised when someone who I otherwise think is funny, smart, and well-written admits to liking Newsweek's spoken word, having read their books, and how powerful their work is and how much it means to them. _______________________________

Posted by pamsterdam on 2005-05-16 18:17:37 +0000

I nearly wet myself.

Posted by pamsterdam on 2005-05-16 18:24:57 +0000

Erm... don't you think that the "freedom loving peoples" of America would call for a ban of any Afghani newspaper which they perceived as anti-American? And wouldn't the "freedom loving peoples" of America also call for the arrest & punishment of anyone found guilty of desecrating the Bible (admittedly, a book) as part of the systematic humiliation & torture of (possibly innocent) imprisoned devout Christians? I mean, if the shoe were on the other foot, Christian Yanks would be just as pissed. I think we can all understand the muslims' rage over this... ...can't we?

Posted by tgl on 2005-05-16 19:08:14 +0000

Mapplethorpe never encited a riot that killed 15 people when he suspended the crucifix in urine and put in on display in Cleveland. (Admittedly, I might have the artist and the city wrong). Yes, there were demonstrations of public disapproval. Yes, if true, this was Another Dumb Idea(tm) from our guys in the interrogation department. I can see Tom DeLay or James Dobson or Pat Robertson calling for a statement of remorse from a foreign national reported to have desecrated a Christian bible. However, call me gullible and naive, but I don't see G.W. crossing that line and calling for the perpetrator to be punished by the U.S. legal system. Something our man Karzai has done. Al Jazeera may be construed as anti-American, heck, some might argue that The Economist and The Guardian are as well. I don't hear a chorus of political leaders calling for them to be banned from public consumption in the U.S. Which reminds me, this changes the tally slightly, however, the standings remain the same: Deaths Caused by Dubious Claims without Proper Verification

Rank	Name	Deaths
1.	Bush administration	24,600 (a most conservative number, includes 1,500 US dead)
2.	Newseek	15
3.	Dan Rather	1 (Kerry's demise not entirely Rather's fault, but, what the hay)

Posted by tgl on 2005-05-16 19:08:53 +0000

Nice.

Posted by pamsterdam on 2005-05-16 20:07:02 +0000

The link you give re: Karzai appears to be an article on a British clothing franchise - I'd like to read the article you meant to link, as I hadn't realised that Karzai had made commentary to the effect you mention above. I agree, that would be decidedly odd. "Piss Christ" was (ostensibly) art. The Newsweek article and the treatment of POWs are certainly politics. As much as artists would like to think otherwise, I still think that politics are more powerful than the arts and provoke stronger reactions than the arts. As for the 15 people dying in the riot, I would argue (possibly incorrectly, but I'm happy to go out on a limb - I was raised Baptist) that Southern Baptist protests against abortion clinics most certainly would have led to deaths if not for our (flawed, but still effective) infrastructure (police), which I'd imagine is far less effective and far more flawed in Afghanistan. American Christians only feel truly under fire where it comes to hot-button issues like abortion, so I think that their behavior in abortion clinic protests (that is, violent) is more indicative of how a devout group behaves when it feels its existence threatened and its beliefs undervalued. If Al Jazeera were available at every American newspaper stand which sold international papers (which is true of Newsweek internationally - it's everywhere), I'd bet you dollars to donuts (mmm, donuts) that some Americans would call for it to come off the shelves. And unless American newspaper stands have changed drastically since New Year's, Al Jazeera isn't widely available. And come to think of it, seeing as it has such a broad readership, isn't that odd? You see the national papers of Spain, Germany, Japan, India, but not the newspaper which is read across the Arabic-speaking (-reading) world? Edited to add: I do see where you're coming from, I'm just playing devil's advocate.

Posted by tgl on 2005-05-16 20:51:14 +0000

a working link on Karzai Al Jazeera isn't a great example because it's a satellite television station. Still, I'm sure it can viewed here in the U.S., somewhere. I didn't consider that rioting deaths might be due to a lack of improper policing. I don't think it's odd that Muslims are protesting and calling for news outlets to be banned. It happens in the U.S. all the time. I think it's odd that the head of a government the U.S. is supporting (in the name of "spreading freedom") is asking that the desecrator of a book be brought to justice. Here I'm assuming that justice be something more than whatever standard library fines would be.

Posted by pamsterdam on 2005-05-16 21:04:17 +0000

Nearly bedtime for me, so I will sign off after posting this - not a reflection of my respect for the time you put into your responses, honestly. And your library fines comment did make me laugh out loud. Thank you for the article - an eye-opener! I am surprised (shocked might be too strong a word) that Karzai has asked for the Koran-desecrators to be put on trial. I imagine that I would not be surprised had he called for the US government to express remorse for its representatives having desecrated a book which is holy scripture to muslim people, and had he further used the opportunity to call attention to the treatment of the people themselves as being a more pressing concern than the disrespect shown for their faith. But you're right, and I think that Karzai's lack of political experience is showing here (another businessman-turned-politician). He was I'm sure offended by the maltreatment of the Koran, and spoke out of his own personal anger.

Posted by tgl on 2005-05-16 21:15:21 +0000

I think this episode underscores the enormity of the task the U.S. has taken on in Afghanistan (one that had to be done, considering the previous regime was harboring criminals). It also illustrates (or continues the prepondering evidence) how completely dunderheaded our intelligence services have been. CIA Officer: These people hate us for our freewheeling, hedonistic lifestyle. So... Military Intelligence Officer: Let's desecrate the one object they hold sacred! CIA Officer: Excellent idea! That'll make 'em talk.

Posted by tgl on 2005-05-16 21:42:51 +0000

Pentagon horrified at the prospect of alienating Muslims. Too bad the DoD wasn't this sensitive when they decided that detaining innocent civilians, torturing and (sometimes) killing them was to be it's modus operandi in dealing with Islamic terrorists. I'll also point out that the charges being "demonstrably false" have yet to be demonstrated.

Posted by dawnbixtler on 2005-05-16 21:54:15 +0000

"Released detainees and their lawyers have charged at various points over the past year that guards at the prison had thrown a Koran in the toilet." So how is that "demonstrably false"? The Pentagon can't even lie correctly.

Posted by tgl on 2005-05-16 21:56:26 +0000

I'll also point out that the charges being "demonstrably false" have yet to be demonstrated. Hmmm, how about: I'll also point out that the charges being "demonstrably false" have yet to be demonstrated false.

Posted by dawnbixtler on 2005-05-16 22:01:23 +0000

[url=http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7864705/]Monday, May 16th 17:58 -- Newsweek caves in.[/url] And it looks like they were right. Wimps...

Posted by lrf on 2005-05-16 23:56:17 +0000

newsweek sucks

Posted by pamsterdam on 2005-05-17 06:40:29 +0000

Hee hee! Yes, and what was that [i]excellent[/i] quote from Bush Jr. right after 9/11? Something along the lines of "We need better intelligence." Um, yes. Couldn't agree with you more on that issue, Georgie.

Posted by rladew on 2005-05-17 13:31:27 +0000

And When I see someone wearing a Newsweek T Shirt, I Think That they're scum too... _______________________________

Posted by tgl on 2005-05-17 13:38:08 +0000

Wow! The multi-faceted lrf emerges!

Posted by tgl on 2005-05-17 13:46:58 +0000

The gall! ... “The report had real consequences,” White House press secretary Scott McClellan said Monday. “People have lost their lives. Our image abroad has been damaged. There are some who are opposed to the United States and what we stand for who have sought to exploit this allegation. It will take work to undo what can be undone.” McClellan said a retraction was only “a good first step” and said Newsweek should try to set the record straight by “clearly explaining what happened and how they got it wrong, particularly to the Muslim world, and pointing out the policies and practices of our military.” ... That's right, Scottie, "Our image abroad has been damaged". No shit. Come again? It's Newsweek's responsibility to explain the Bush administrations policies and military practices to worldwide Muslims??! Let me be clear: Newsweek completely screwed up if this report is founded entirely on hearsay.

Posted by tgl on 2005-05-19 04:50:13 +0000

To blame! Picked this up through TPM, so, I'm sure dawnbixtler has seen it. Maybe pamsterdam is interested.

Posted by pamsterdam on 2005-05-19 08:07:22 +0000

My God. No deistic irony intended, honestly. It's just that I am speechless... That's a beautifully written piece, thanks tgl. Damned depressing, though. Is this how we treat human beings? As I said previously (kind of), I would expect Karzai to be much stronger in his calls for justice where it comes to the treatment of people rather than the treatment of holy writ. I hope I don't horrify anyone by saying this - I'm not trying to be contraversial - but doesn't this sound a little bit like a description of how the Nazis treated prisoners? On a lighter note, the British army isn't having such problems with [url=http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4554083.stm]PR[/url].

Posted by tgl on 2005-05-24 22:00:18 +0000

in cold blog Evidently, those 15 dead Afghani protesters (I thought they were Pakistani?) have been tabulated by the White House only. Karzai (he of the "throw the book, but not that book, at 'em") doesn't back up this claim. Where does the truth lie? WARNING: This next paragraph gets me into philosophical waters way over my head. I need to rediscover the link to the weblog wherein the author argues that the neo-cons are fully embracing post-modern philosophy to further their claims on the "truth". Basically, by continually repeating what you want the public to believe, whether or not your claims are valid (WMD in Iraq, for example), will make that thing valid in the public mind. While at the same time, the neo-cons are derisive of anything classically associated with post-modernism. Derrida, for example.

Posted by tgl on 2005-05-26 03:55:19 +0000

Newsweek, like Dan Rather, had the gist right This story just keeps getting more depressing.

Posted by rladew on 2005-05-26 16:43:29 +0000

Interesting article on Muslim tolerance vs. American tolerance by our "hack journalist" friends @ WSJ editorial... _______________________________

Posted by tgl on 2005-05-26 17:07:49 +0000

With my eyes closed, prior to reading the WSJ article, I make this prediction to content: Well, at least we don't hack off people's heads.

Posted by tgl on 2005-05-26 17:15:47 +0000

OK, I wasn't _that_ far off. I agree with the essay's sentiment. The fluster from Muslim leaders in the Arab world over descration of the Quran (Koran? Qu'ran?) further illustrates how far away from "freedom loving" these places are. Same thoughts from a more lefty source. By the way, WSJ Opinion Journal isn't journalism. It's opinionism. Same goes for the NYT Op/Ed page.

Posted by rladew on 2005-05-26 17:41:14 +0000

"hack journalism": someone else on this boards words, not mine _______________________________

Posted by tgl on 2005-05-26 18:21:54 +0000

I know whose!

Posted by Rory_Stark on 2005-05-26 18:34:46 +0000

Isn't the real issue here the muscling of Newsweek? I mean come on, I paid for some atrocity. At least let me read about it.

Posted by tgl on 2005-05-26 18:39:30 +0000

Damn, you're right. The back of the ticket I received on Sept. 12th, 2001 reads: "Bearer entitled to inflict degradation and torture upon all bearded, brown skinned people."

Posted by Rory_Stark on 2005-05-26 18:43:26 +0000

Right. I mean, how come I was'nt invited to The Quran Bonfire party? WTF

Posted by dawnbixtler on 2005-06-04 03:16:53 +0000

U.S. Southern command [url=http://reuters.myway.com/article/20050603/2005-06-03T232519Z_01_N03282432_RTRIDST_0_NEWS-SECURITY-GUANTANAMO-KORAN-DC.html]confirms "mishandling of Koran." at Gitmo.[/url] I've enjoyed this whole story for almost 3 weeks now. Pathetic, I know... I'll go back to my cave now.

Posted by tgl on 2005-06-04 13:39:15 +0000

When you get back to the cave, say "hello" to Osama for us.

Posted by tgl on 2005-06-04 13:48:40 +0000

The "my way" Reuter's snippet makes it sound like the Koran was purposedly doused in urine, while the Voice of America story describes the accidental (boneheaded?) nature of that specific "mishandling". voa