For Simplification Purposes...
All unfortunate American political situations will be compared with the <a href ="http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/22/politics/22durbin.htm?">Nazis</a>
I Loved Mccain's comment on 'Meet The Press' last week that Durbin should be required to read about Pol Pot and The Gulag prisoner situation... might put things in a bit more perspective. With apologies to Jello Biafra, maybe Durbin should time travel and take a 'Holiday in Cambodia'.
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Forget the handwaving the right is doing about Durbin's comments. They're trying to get back for Lott. Lott was pining for a time when segregation and disrespect for human rights was legal, Durbin's sentiment is the opposite of that.
At the end of the day, America is still torturing people. How do we feel about that?
See tgl's post below.
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Perspective:
The idea that it's OK for the US to chain someone to the floor on all fours and leave them there for 18 hours to urinate and defecate themselves because at the end of the day, Pol Pot, Hitler, Stalin and the rest were far worse is sickening.
Really. Isn't America better than that?
If you think we treat people like the nazis that is definitely your right and I respect your opinion.
I am deeply saddened by the bad apples in the barrel that are mistreating prisoners. That is certainly something to put a grinding halt to.
Durbin's comments when rationalized with facts of being detained and tortured make the Nazi comparison understandable, but that doesn't mean its an incredibly smart thing to say in public (same with Deans comments in the other post) Truth is less of the issue in this situation... its more TACT...
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"Truth is less of the issue in this situation... its more TACT..."
That line depresses me more than I can fathom... Maybe that's because facts mean shit load more to me than the Administration. It's also censorship...
Democrats here care more about being "right" than they do about winning elections.
Do people here really think Rich Ladew is advocating censorship? I dont care what Dean or Durbin say. They are certainly welcome to make all the correct factual remarks they want. All the better if they emotionally charge their facts with slight hints of the MILLIONS of people killed by totalitarian regimes in Germany, Soviet Union, and Cambodia.
As long as some arcane piece of their analogy is correct, do you think its smart to compare people to the Nazis? Do you think that will shift the balance of Power to Liberals in this country?
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Oh, and PS - x.
Oh.
Oh, you're being sarcastic.
;-)
You are digging a very large hole, Rladew...
Rich, are you down there? Put the fuckin' lotion in the basket!
People like Durbin may in fact deserve the tongue lashing for trying to point out the truth in a tactless way. Funny how it's the Conservatives criticising someone for being un-PC this time.
Here's why I'm so needy of being right: I'm also concerned about the people of the US, and America itself. I do not believe that the US is making a wise choice by humiliating and degrading detainees in an extra-legal setting. This is a horrible precedent that tarnishes the US, the US military and the US people. It puts us further at risk. The abuses at Guatanamo where not a few bad apples. These are approved techniques, approved by this administration.
Here's the quote in question by the way:
"If I read this to you and did not tell you that it was an FBI agent describing what Americans had done to prisoners in their control, you would most certainly believe this must have been done by Nazis, Soviets in their gulags, or some mad regime--Pol Pot or others--that had no concern for human beings. Sadly, that is not the case. This was the action of Americans in the treatment of their prisoners."
I'm ashamed he had to apologize.
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Please don't stop challenging me, honestly. I like thinking about these things, and sitting around nodding in agreement isn't challenging.
I guess it must be lonely being the lone Conservative... but we do love you.
Its a bad analogy for many reasons. "NAZI" is such a politically charged word that brings instant images of the holocaust, syphillis crazed mass murdering dicttators, etc.
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"As long as some arcane piece of their analogy is correct"
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You really seem caught up in all the hard right jingoism, rladew...
<a href="http://www.thememoryhole.org/pol/bush-hitler-ads.htm">2.</a>
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I think its easy when something you dont agree with politically to start calling people Nazis and fascists, but that doesnt make America Nazi or Fascist. That's all Im trying to say.
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<font size=5 color=red><blink>THE US IS TORTURING PEOPLE.</blink></font>
Oh that's right: "Truth is less of the issue in this situation..."
-rladew
gross...
I think its easy when something you dont agree with politically to start calling people Nazis and fascists, but that doesnt make America Nazi or Fascist. That's all Im trying to say.
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The right wing attack machine is trying to whip up a controversy over this, when in fact, if you look at what Durbin said and not what Frist, Lott, Cheney, et al. said he said, we'd all be in agreement.
Does McCain think as some of us do that this administration has over stepped it's bounds (moral, legal, or otherwise)? That it's not, in fact, a few bad apples, but systematic abuse?
Again, unlike the publicized abuses at Abu Ghraib (which I'd characterize as a failure of leadership, for which no one was reprimanded) the stuff that went on (and goes on) at Gauntanamo is entirely sanctioned by this administration.
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Since "The Apprentice" wrapped up, I'm not that interested in TV anymore.
...upon consideration, I doubt any of you "get" them either...
You cannot take away my freedom of speech, but you diminished your own cred.
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We were discussing MoveOn.org, and you lying about them comparing Bush to Hitler. Your link does nothing. You obviously do not have to agree with me, but stop lying.
But I do acknowledge a seperation between politics and other topics, so I will continue to listen when discussing Coltrane, Coleman, Patton, and all things Zorn. :)
Moveon.org Is not a site I read or look at, but I remember seeing the Bush/Hitler thing that Moveon did not create last summer. Close to one year later, I didnt clearly remember who created / who sponsored / etc. The only clear image was that of Bush and Hitler together and it was an image that Moveon provided to a mass audience.
The distinction of who created it wasn't something I knew about and then deceitfully "Lied" about as you eloquently put it.
Im sad that this has come down to a personal level where I am being accused of lying, and that my personal credibility is in question by someone who doesnt know me very well.
I dont think most people give a fuck if you are talking about content on a website if its creation vs. distribution. Guilt by association.
But have fun being right.
Love
RL
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I welcome differing opinions, but I get upset when people lie about facts -- whether it be a friend, The Wall Street Journal, Ted Kennedy, or the President. I try to be truthful first, tactful second. Just raised that way, I guess...
Indeed, I am right, but that doesn't mean I'm having anymore fun w/o you, rladew...
Let's have a nice, clean discussion here, with no rock throwing or hitting below the belt.
Why do you all have such a problem with your race being a bunch of evil cunts?
I agree with Rich.
Hosting an image is as good as endorsing it. People, by and large, do not care or notice if the image/clip/article comes from the website/station/newspaper which posts/displays it. They care about what the host is saying, albeit indirectly, by hosting that item. He was not lying, he was demonstrating this fact.
Think about it - what if this wasn't a clip making a shocking commentary designed to make people think more carefully about following GWB? What if it was, instead, designed to make people think more carefully about treating Blacks (or women, or gays, or the disabled) with respect? What if this shocking video instead compared, let's say, Blacks to monkeys? And what if it was hosted by a Conservative website? Wouldn't we RSD folks be just as angry? Wouldn't we blame the Conservative website? It's an extreme example, I know, but GWB is not Hitler. While I too feel the urge to point some attention to the fact that our military is abusing prisoners & as a nation we are not questioning our leadership... and while I too see some merit in drawing a comparison to the Nazi regime for reasons of shocking people into attention... I can see Rich's point of view. And I am grateful to him for expressing it in such a way that I can understand it.
Rich is a decent, well-thought-out debater. His opinion on political matters is often different from mine, and therefore I learn from him. I enjoy discussing politics with him because he forces me to think, he forces me to see things from another perspective. And I value that. I value the fact that he takes the time to discuss things with me/us. I value the fact that he doesn't make these discussions personal. I think that calling Rich a liar and questioning his cred is over the top. I think that losing Rich as a contributor to RSD political discussions would be a huge loss.
I'm not trying to be melodramatic or to make anyone feel guilty for things said in the heat of the moment. I just don't want to lose Rich's perspective - I think it's important to all of us.
Oh well.
Ya know I'm not much for dropping c bombs but with Hitler being all bandied about it just sort of slipped.
Anyway, your post is right under the ref picture, just where you left it. :)
Sure, politics are about pleasing people, but, sometimes a spade is a spade and you just have to say: We are torturing people. What are we going to do about it?
If the analogy offends so much, doesn't that mean it's got some truth?
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As the owner of this domain, am I now to blame because it's possible to see a image of Bush and Hitler super imposed? Hosting content on a website (OK, I'm clearly _not_ hosting it, but providing a link) is different than printing it in a newspaper. Especially when that content is submitted by the public at large.
The fact of the matter is that the MoveOn.org competition did a very poor job of screening submissions. Were they able to deny pornographic content? I'm sure someone within that organization approved that movie to be on their servers. That does not mean the entire organization approves of the movie. That does not mean that every time someone to the left of the current administration tries to make people aware of the apparent path this country is on, they should be taken to task.
I agree with the <a href="http://www.thememoryhole.org/pol/bush-hitler-ads.htm">sentiments at the memory hole</a>. Rush Limbaugh continues to refer to "Femi-Nazis". Just more double standards.
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The outrage over Durbin is embarassing. Basically this man asked, "If I read to you accounts of someone being chained to the floor for 18 hours and made to urinate and defecate on themself and made to bark like a dog, would you think his jailers where Nazis, Stalinists, or Americans?"
If you are offended by that question, why aren't you offend by the actions of our government?
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rladew owns <a href="http://www.rideside.net/drupal/node/1712">this post</a>. I hate to say it but, "He started it". To start this discussion then to beg out because the direction it had taken wasn't to his liking...
I'm all for differences of opinion --- this has been a very exciting 24 hours! --- so, I'd feel bad if people refrained because they felt like they were being attacked would be a shame.
Rich is not a liar.
You write: If the analogy offends so much, doesn't that mean it's got some truth?
No, no it doesn't necessarily. And shock tactics have been shown time and time again to work against Liberals in America. Sensitive, measured dialogue and (often a lot of) the passage of time is what changes public opinion. I am relieved to know that there are others who perceive similarities between fascist regimes and GWB's White House - I am frightened to see what appears to me to be unquestioning acceptance of unacceptable behavior. However, alienating fellow Americans is not the way to make progress. It's the way to inspire a backlash - not against GWB, but against Liberals.
It has indeed been an exciting 24 hours...
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However, I'm going to.
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This forum (and rladew's opinions in general) sparked a bunch of debate at Q last night, some stark discussions of idealism, what it means to be 'liberal,' and how we, individually, view the US as both problematic and wonderful.
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It also brought into focus the fact that we are actually quite varied, politically, even though it doesn't appear so. Some of us are patriotic flag lovers, some of us think that the US can't do anything right. Some of us are socialist-leaning, some of us are fiscal conservatives. Some of us thought that the controversy supported the liberal agenda, and some of us thought that it supported the conservative agenda.
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I don't think you've changed anyone's mind, rladew, but you certainly have made us all think a lot.
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<i>The Boot Knife of Mild Reason </i>