WWW.RIDESIDE.NET

Posted by dawnbixtler on 2005-06-22 17:09:24 +0000

He who throws the first stone...

Posted by rladew on 2005-06-22 17:15:34 +0000

What Stone did Mccain throw? _______________________________

Posted by tgl on 2005-06-22 17:15:46 +0000

With all do respect, how does detaining and torturing someone without trial differ from the way the Nazi Party operated? Forget the handwaving the right is doing about Durbin's comments. They're trying to get back for Lott. Lott was pining for a time when segregation and disrespect for human rights was legal, Durbin's sentiment is the opposite of that. At the end of the day, America is still torturing people. How do we feel about that?

Posted by tgl on 2005-06-22 17:17:19 +0000

From now on I'll be using "unfortunate American political situations" as a euphemism for "humiliation and degredation of human beings".

Posted by dawnbixtler on 2005-06-22 17:25:10 +0000

The "torture" stone. McCain's hands are cleaner than almost everyone else's, since he was a POW. Still, how do we measure murderous torture? By severity? By quantity? By moral outrage? Tough questions... See tgl's post below.

Posted by tgl on 2005-06-22 17:34:38 +0000

Sorry to pile on, but this really riled me. --- Perspective: The idea that it's OK for the US to chain someone to the floor on all fours and leave them there for 18 hours to urinate and defecate themselves because at the end of the day, Pol Pot, Hitler, Stalin and the rest were far worse is sickening. Really. Isn't America better than that?

Posted by rladew on 2005-06-22 17:36:17 +0000

I am not pro-Torture. If you think we treat people like the nazis that is definitely your right and I respect your opinion. I am deeply saddened by the bad apples in the barrel that are mistreating prisoners. That is certainly something to put a grinding halt to. Durbin's comments when rationalized with facts of being detained and tortured make the Nazi comparison understandable, but that doesn't mean its an incredibly smart thing to say in public (same with Deans comments in the other post) Truth is less of the issue in this situation... its more TACT... _______________________________

Posted by tgl on 2005-06-22 17:37:37 +0000

Let's not offend the torturers, eh?

Posted by rladew on 2005-06-22 17:41:34 +0000

Right. lets just let everyone go, repeal PATRIOT and get the hell out of Iraq. We'll model our economic system after Europe and Canada and make nice at the UN. sounds like a good plan. _______________________________

Posted by dawnbixtler on 2005-06-22 17:44:26 +0000

Part of the reason Durbin's comments struck a chord is because they were rational and accurate. It certainly got everyone's attention. "Truth is less of the issue in this situation... its more TACT..." That line depresses me more than I can fathom... Maybe that's because facts mean shit load more to me than the Administration. It's also censorship...

Posted by dawnbixtler on 2005-06-22 17:46:31 +0000

Um, no. The torture descriptions at Gitmo were from people who were let free, because after 3 years the US realized they hadn't done anything...

Posted by dawnbixtler on 2005-06-22 17:49:51 +0000

Actually, that would certainly help our economy... Couldn't get a whole lot worse...

Posted by rladew on 2005-06-22 17:56:34 +0000

this goes back to the discussions we had in November. The liberal viewpoint on this is like the conceit of the annointed. The primary concern for liberals here is to be correct and to let everyone in the world know how smart and informed they are without giving a tinkers cuss about the people of the US. Democrats here care more about being "right" than they do about winning elections. Do people here really think Rich Ladew is advocating censorship? I dont care what Dean or Durbin say. They are certainly welcome to make all the correct factual remarks they want. All the better if they emotionally charge their facts with slight hints of the MILLIONS of people killed by totalitarian regimes in Germany, Soviet Union, and Cambodia. As long as some arcane piece of their analogy is correct, do you think its smart to compare people to the Nazis? Do you think that will shift the balance of Power to Liberals in this country? _______________________________

Posted by frame609 on 2005-06-22 18:04:10 +0000

It's important to compare people to the Nazis when civil liberties are being systematically parsed.

Posted by pamsterdam on 2005-06-22 18:08:20 +0000

Yes. And Rich, I understand where you're coming from. To "Liberals", from a certain perspective, being right is probably more important than winning. But the way I see this is that having this dialogue and maybe convincing Conservatives that our viewpoint is valid is more important than winning elections. To massacre the Special Olympics credo, if we cannot win, let us be brave in our attempt to make our case. Oh, and PS - x.

Posted by pamsterdam on 2005-06-22 18:14:33 +0000

Why, Rich, you're making sense! That's just wonderf... Oh. Oh, you're being sarcastic. ;-)

Posted by dawnbixtler on 2005-06-22 19:15:11 +0000

There it is: Torture, murder, holding innocent people without charges, and the removal of civil liberties -- are now "arcane." You are digging a very large hole, Rladew...

Posted by frame609 on 2005-06-22 19:18:30 +0000

Rich, are you down there? Put the fuckin' lotion in the basket!

Posted by dawnbixtler on 2005-06-22 19:18:45 +0000

.

Posted by tgl on 2005-06-22 19:25:52 +0000

I'm only concerned about the truth: The US is torturing people. In that way, I'm guilty of being a conceited liberal. People like Durbin may in fact deserve the tongue lashing for trying to point out the truth in a tactless way. Funny how it's the Conservatives criticising someone for being un-PC this time. Here's why I'm so needy of being right: I'm also concerned about the people of the US, and America itself. I do not believe that the US is making a wise choice by humiliating and degrading detainees in an extra-legal setting. This is a horrible precedent that tarnishes the US, the US military and the US people. It puts us further at risk. The abuses at Guatanamo where not a few bad apples. These are approved techniques, approved by this administration. Here's the quote in question by the way: "If I read this to you and did not tell you that it was an FBI agent describing what Americans had done to prisoners in their control, you would most certainly believe this must have been done by Nazis, Soviets in their gulags, or some mad regime--Pol Pot or others--that had no concern for human beings. Sadly, that is not the case. This was the action of Americans in the treatment of their prisoners." I'm ashamed he had to apologize.

Posted by rladew on 2005-06-22 19:25:56 +0000

Im getting kinda tired of espousing a different political POV on this board. Homogenous political ideals on RS.N might be the path of least resistance. I like the Rawk and BOSOX stuff better anyhoo.... _______________________________

Posted by frame609 on 2005-06-22 19:30:45 +0000

Rich, we love you. Seriously.

Posted by pamsterdam on 2005-06-22 19:38:23 +0000

Rich, I was only teasing. x Please don't stop challenging me, honestly. I like thinking about these things, and sitting around nodding in agreement isn't challenging. I guess it must be lonely being the lone Conservative... but we do love you.

Posted by rladew on 2005-06-22 19:41:24 +0000

Your mind connected the words "Torture" and "Arcane" Dawn, not mine. How many documented Gitmo cases of torture are there? TGL has an excellent point when he says being stripped of civil liberties and being tortured is how the Nazis started treating the Jews. That is a GLOBAL assesment of how all Nazis treated their victims. Nazis murdered MILLIONS of people. What is arcane, or known or understood by only a few, is how Durbin is connecting America with the Nazis. For those particular individuals that tortured prisoners? Definitely they displayed Nazi like behavior. For All of America or the military as a whole? Definitely Not. Its a bad analogy for many reasons. "NAZI" is such a politically charged word that brings instant images of the holocaust, syphillis crazed mass murdering dicttators, etc. _______________________________

Posted by dawnbixtler on 2005-06-22 19:48:15 +0000

No, rladew, you did: "As long as some arcane piece of their analogy is correct"

Posted by frame609 on 2005-06-22 19:50:31 +0000

I don't think the Nazi thing is being thrown around lightly- dropping that bomb into conversation is supposed to start dialogue, which is exactly what happened here.

Posted by dawnbixtler on 2005-06-22 19:56:45 +0000

I like it: The P.C. pro-torture, deficit creating, neo-con movement.

Posted by rladew on 2005-06-22 20:11:17 +0000

Ok Time Out. Lets put aside Gitmo for a moment. What about Moveon.org comparing Bush to Hitler in some of its? do you think that that is a factual and accurate comparison? _______________________________

Posted by dawnbixtler on 2005-06-22 20:14:57 +0000

[url=http://mediamatters.org/items/200405280003]Let's get the facts straight:[/url] MoveOn.org never compared Bush to Hitler. It was a comparison done by a third party to the site, though I personally believe it to be valid, Moveon did not. You really seem caught up in all the hard right jingoism, rladew...

Posted by rladew on 2005-06-22 20:23:03 +0000

Oh really? [img]http://www.thememoryhole.org/pol/bush-hitler2.jpg[/img] 1. 2. _______________________________

Posted by rladew on 2005-06-22 20:24:09 +0000

Whoever created it, Moveon was happy to display it. _______________________________

Posted by rladew on 2005-06-22 20:28:17 +0000

All of you should watch the Mccain interview. He actually sides with TGL (as do I, for the most part. I took Mccain's message as something to the extent of (not Mccain's actual quotes) "we should be careful how we treat others, as that is probably how they will treat us" I think its easy when something you dont agree with politically to start calling people Nazis and fascists, but that doesnt make America Nazi or Fascist. That's all Im trying to say. _______________________________

Posted by tgl on 2005-06-22 20:28:43 +0000

OK, time out. Let's put aggravating comparisons to Nazi Germany aside for the moment: THE US IS TORTURING PEOPLE.

Posted by dawnbixtler on 2005-06-22 20:38:43 +0000

So Moveon did not make the comparison, and you still lied back there, didn't you? Oh that's right: "Truth is less of the issue in this situation..." -rladew gross...

Posted by rladew on 2005-06-22 20:47:06 +0000

All of you should watch the Mccain interview. He actually sides with TGL (as do I, for the most part. I took Mccain's message as something to the extent of (not Mccain's actual quotes) "we should be careful how we treat others, as that is probably how they will treat us" I think its easy when something you dont agree with politically to start calling people Nazis and fascists, but that doesnt make America Nazi or Fascist. That's all Im trying to say. _______________________________

Posted by rladew on 2005-06-22 20:48:07 +0000

freedom of speech is a beautiful thing Dawn... _______________________________

Posted by dawnbixtler on 2005-06-22 20:50:33 +0000

so is cred

Posted by tgl on 2005-06-22 20:59:55 +0000

Dubin never called anyone a Nazi or a fascist! I refer you to the quote above. The right wing attack machine is trying to whip up a controversy over this, when in fact, if you look at what Durbin said and not what Frist, Lott, Cheney, et al. said he said, we'd all be in agreement. Does McCain think as some of us do that this administration has over stepped it's bounds (moral, legal, or otherwise)? That it's not, in fact, a few bad apples, but systematic abuse? Again, unlike the publicized abuses at Abu Ghraib (which I'd characterize as a failure of leadership, for which no one was reprimanded) the stuff that went on (and goes on) at Gauntanamo is entirely sanctioned by this administration.

Posted by rladew on 2005-06-22 21:06:25 +0000

Oh, so you've been watching "Nanny 911" and "Joey" too? _______________________________

Posted by tgl on 2005-06-22 21:07:44 +0000

Sorry, don't get it.

Posted by rladew on 2005-06-22 21:08:06 +0000

With all due respect, I hope yr not judging my credibility... _______________________________

Posted by tgl on 2005-06-22 21:09:16 +0000

OK, just figured it out. Since "The Apprentice" wrapped up, I'm not that interested in TV anymore.

Posted by pamsterdam on 2005-06-22 21:09:29 +0000

Chortle inducing. And we don't even get those shows over here. ...upon consideration, I doubt any of you "get" them either...

Posted by dawnbixtler on 2005-06-22 21:17:49 +0000

Absolutely. You cannot take away my freedom of speech, but you diminished your own cred.

Posted by rladew on 2005-06-22 21:27:24 +0000

Im sorry you think so. _______________________________

Posted by rladew on 2005-06-22 22:08:17 +0000

Congrats to the 14% of America that has "Cred" _______________________________

Posted by dawnbixtler on 2005-06-22 22:26:55 +0000

Nice Handwaving, look over here... We were discussing MoveOn.org, and you lying about them comparing Bush to Hitler. Your link does nothing. You obviously do not have to agree with me, but stop lying. But I do acknowledge a seperation between politics and other topics, so I will continue to listen when discussing Coltrane, Coleman, Patton, and all things Zorn. :)

Posted by rladew on 2005-06-22 22:55:05 +0000

This is my last political post. Moveon.org Is not a site I read or look at, but I remember seeing the Bush/Hitler thing that Moveon did not create last summer. Close to one year later, I didnt clearly remember who created / who sponsored / etc. The only clear image was that of Bush and Hitler together and it was an image that Moveon provided to a mass audience. The distinction of who created it wasn't something I knew about and then deceitfully "Lied" about as you eloquently put it. Im sad that this has come down to a personal level where I am being accused of lying, and that my personal credibility is in question by someone who doesnt know me very well. I dont think most people give a fuck if you are talking about content on a website if its creation vs. distribution. Guilt by association. But have fun being right. Love RL _______________________________

Posted by dawnbixtler on 2005-06-23 01:53:55 +0000

Thank you for your candor. Nothing personal. I welcome differing opinions, but I get upset when people lie about facts -- whether it be a friend, The Wall Street Journal, Ted Kennedy, or the President. I try to be truthful first, tactful second. Just raised that way, I guess... Indeed, I am right, but that doesn't mean I'm having anymore fun w/o you, rladew...

Posted by Rideside Ref on 2005-06-23 03:30:53 +0000

Let's have a nice, clean discussion here, with no rock throwing or hitting below the belt.

Posted by Rory_Stark on 2005-06-23 06:16:51 +0000

Eat it Puss Bag. Why do you all have such a problem with your race being a bunch of evil cunts?

Posted by pamsterdam on 2005-06-23 10:55:38 +0000

OK, I'm a teensy bit cross that this all went down after I went to bed. The price I pay for living in the wrong time zone, I guess. I agree with Rich. Hosting an image is as good as endorsing it. People, by and large, do not care or notice if the image/clip/article comes from the website/station/newspaper which posts/displays it. They care about what the host is saying, albeit indirectly, by hosting that item. He was not lying, he was demonstrating this fact. Think about it - what if this wasn't a clip making a shocking commentary designed to make people think more carefully about following GWB? What if it was, instead, designed to make people think more carefully about treating Blacks (or women, or gays, or the disabled) with respect? What if this shocking video instead compared, let's say, Blacks to monkeys? And what if it was hosted by a Conservative website? Wouldn't we RSD folks be just as angry? Wouldn't we blame the Conservative website? It's an extreme example, I know, but GWB is not Hitler. While I too feel the urge to point some attention to the fact that our military is abusing prisoners & as a nation we are not questioning our leadership... and while I too see some merit in drawing a comparison to the Nazi regime for reasons of shocking people into attention... I can see Rich's point of view. And I am grateful to him for expressing it in such a way that I can understand it. Rich is a decent, well-thought-out debater. His opinion on political matters is often different from mine, and therefore I learn from him. I enjoy discussing politics with him because he forces me to think, he forces me to see things from another perspective. And I value that. I value the fact that he takes the time to discuss things with me/us. I value the fact that he doesn't make these discussions personal. I think that calling Rich a liar and questioning his cred is over the top. I think that losing Rich as a contributor to RSD political discussions would be a huge loss. I'm not trying to be melodramatic or to make anyone feel guilty for things said in the heat of the moment. I just don't want to lose Rich's perspective - I think it's important to all of us.

Posted by Rory_Stark on 2005-06-23 13:35:12 +0000

Damn, my post was supposed to be right under the ref picture. Oh well. Ya know I'm not much for dropping c bombs but with Hitler being all bandied about it just sort of slipped.

Posted by pamsterdam on 2005-06-23 13:37:52 +0000

What, you mean "cunt"? It's not such a terrible word, is it? It sounds kind of nice... Anyway, your post [i]is[/i] right under the ref picture, just where you left it. :)

Posted by tgl on 2005-06-23 14:08:38 +0000

I understand rladew's consternation with these unpleasant analogies and attention-getting polemic. I see his point that sometimes those tactics don't work because they lack tact. Sure, politics are about pleasing people, but, sometimes a spade is a spade and you just have to say: We are torturing people. What are we going to do about it? If the analogy offends so much, doesn't that mean it's got some truth? --- As the owner of this domain, am I now to blame because it's possible to see a image of Bush and Hitler super imposed? Hosting content on a website (OK, I'm clearly _not_ hosting it, but providing a link) is different than printing it in a newspaper. Especially when that content is submitted by the public at large. The fact of the matter is that the MoveOn.org competition did a very poor job of screening submissions. Were they able to deny pornographic content? I'm sure someone within that organization approved that movie to be on their servers. That does not mean the entire organization approves of the movie. That does not mean that every time someone to the left of the current administration tries to make people aware of the apparent path this country is on, they should be taken to task. I agree with the sentiments at the memory hole. Rush Limbaugh continues to refer to "Femi-Nazis". Just more double standards. --- The outrage over Durbin is embarassing. Basically this man asked, "If I read to you accounts of someone being chained to the floor for 18 hours and made to urinate and defecate on themself and made to bark like a dog, would you think his jailers where Nazis, Stalinists, or Americans?" If you are offended by that question, why aren't you offend by the actions of our government? --- rladew owns this post. I hate to say it but, "He started it". To start this discussion then to beg out because the direction it had taken wasn't to his liking... I'm all for differences of opinion --- this has been a very exciting 24 hours! --- so, I'd feel bad if people refrained because they felt like they were being attacked would be a shame. Rich is not a liar.

Posted by pamsterdam on 2005-06-23 14:30:55 +0000

Yes, it is embarrassing that Durbin is catching so much heat for the simple act of questioning the status quo. Yes, I am far more humiliated and sickened to know that my countrymen (and countrywomen) saw fit to torture fellow human beings in the name of the US of A than I am by the analogy between Adolph & George. You write: [i]If the analogy offends so much, doesn't that mean it's got some truth?[/i] No, no it doesn't necessarily. And shock tactics have been shown time and time again to work against Liberals in America. Sensitive, measured dialogue and (often a lot of) the passage of time is what changes public opinion. I am relieved to know that there are others who perceive similarities between fascist regimes and GWB's White House - I am frightened to see what appears to me to be unquestioning acceptance of unacceptable behavior. However, alienating fellow Americans is not the way to make progress. It's the way to inspire a backlash - not against GWB, but against Liberals. It has indeed been an exciting 24 hours...

Posted by G lib on 2005-06-23 17:46:16 +0000

I completely agree with every post that Terry and Pam have written about this topic and don't really need to add my additional $ .02. . However, I'm going to. . This forum (and rladew's opinions in general) sparked a bunch of debate at Q last night, some stark discussions of idealism, what it means to be 'liberal,' and how we, individually, view the US as both problematic and wonderful. . It also brought into focus the fact that we are actually quite varied, politically, even though it doesn't appear so. Some of us are patriotic flag lovers, some of us think that the US can't do anything right. Some of us are socialist-leaning, some of us are fiscal conservatives. Some of us thought that the controversy supported the liberal agenda, and some of us thought that it supported the conservative agenda. . I don't think you've changed anyone's mind, rladew, but you certainly have made us all think a lot. ________________ The Boot Knife of Mild Reason