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Posted by dawnbixtler on 2005-08-03 18:16:17 +0000

Right on, rladew. Just remember, regulation is the product of society, and not the need of paper pusher's salaries, as you suggest...

Posted by tendiamonds on 2005-08-03 18:30:27 +0000

But who justifies the salaries of the [url=http://www.spellcheck.net/cgi-bin/spell.exe?action=CHECKWORD&string=licensce] copy editors[/url]?

Posted by rladew on 2005-08-03 18:57:03 +0000

fair enough. just my initial take on the matter. _______________________________ Now Playing: D.R.I. "I Don't Need Society"

Posted by rladew on 2005-08-03 18:57:42 +0000

touche. _______________________________

Posted by dawnbixtler on 2005-08-03 19:30:15 +0000

Wow...

Posted by tgl on 2005-08-04 01:53:11 +0000

Hope these boys don't learn the wrong lesson and blame their failed business on a strict regulatory environment. 50 cents for a Dixie(tm) cup of lemonade made from powdered mix? Sheesh. I won't be investing in that venture. I side with the sausage vendor and the police: If they're selling on public property in Salem, they should have a license. A lemonade stand in the front yard is a different story. I think I'd be less sympathetic to the sausage vendor. Mmmmm, sausage vendor. <fagen>How is Will Gray?</fagen>

Posted by dawnbixtler on 2005-08-04 01:55:43 +0000

I saw "Will Gray and the Lemonade Stands" New Years 96-97... I think there were Big Black covers...

Posted by tendiamonds on 2005-08-04 02:09:21 +0000

Will and the Stands were far more partial to Tommy James and the Shondells... I think that was 95-96...

Posted by rladew on 2005-08-04 10:26:32 +0000

yep. $2000 USD more for Massachusetts will make everything better. sheesh. _______________________________

Posted by rladew on 2005-08-04 13:57:15 +0000

all's well that ends well they didn't even have to pay $2000 USD for a LICENSE _______________________________

Posted by tgl on 2005-08-04 15:30:37 +0000

It's not about the money. I could care less how much a license costs. Salem obviously does not need the $2,000 from these kids. I think the mayor did the right thing by allowing them to get licensed and waiving the fee. Since regulations are part of the business experience, I'd say these kids are learning a good lesson. I have misgivings about a parent sending their 10 year old kids to the Salem Common to sell lemonade. I don't think that's an appropriate location. I think on the sidewalk, in their driveway, somwehere adjacent to their parent's property is a much better idea. The sausage vendor has a real beef, and I support his right to take action by calling the police. If it was me, I might not be that extreme. He's not out their as an educational exercise, he's out there trying to make a living. If this were Lynn, we'd take matters into our own hands.

Posted by rladew on 2005-08-04 16:42:19 +0000

all of this misses the point. my (what I like to think of as Libertarian) viewpoint is that the regulators get in the way and arent protecting anyone. How is our society benefiting from 2 11 year olds having a LICENSE to sell a watery beverage? Will we somehow be safer? These kids (no matter where they set up) are going to get enough business to hurt other vendors? If this is the case, wouldn't it be a better idea for the other vendors to COMPETE by offering a better product? Where people spend their $ will regulate the market without regulation from the government. If no one buys something, it goes away on its own. Say for the sake of argument that the lemonade WAS dangerous to our health - Caveat Empor: Let the buyer beware (also word of mouth would shut them down) Instead of the harmless threat of these kids, weve had Massachusetts taxpayers fund needless activity of police involvement (brings to mind the police guy you taxpayers in Allston near the Sports Depot to sit in a hard to see area from 4pm to 7pm during rush hour to make sure all the baddies dont make left turns - good thing there is no child abuse, murders, or drug trafficking going on in Boston, a media circus where the Mayor has to give the kids a toy LICENSE, and an embarassed sausage vendor who wants to be left alone. Sounds to me like a good argument for a 'Laissez Faire' market. Just my .02 (probably at least .01 of it going to Massachusetts) _______________________________

Posted by dawnbixtler on 2005-08-04 18:20:11 +0000

Last thing: I am a firm believer that true minors (15 years old and younger) should not pay regulatory fees, and in fact I believe they are not libel, but this Salem thing says otherwise. When a business does register with the state, someone is going to be paid to handle the file. Do you think we could get intern's at the State licensing board? ... I'll go with "no". So if we don't charge for the registration, you are justifying higher taxes elsewhere (income, sales, fees, etc). However $2000 sounds high... Finally: Regulations do protect. If you don't think so, I'll be happy do dump my septic tank onto your town's streets. I agree with rladew's letter in principle, and I'm glad he wrote it...

Posted by frame609 on 2005-08-04 18:46:18 +0000

I'd hate to think that you guys agree on something.

Posted by Honar the librarian on 2005-08-04 18:49:25 +0000

More speel checkers for all--I think you may have meant liable, db.

Posted by rladew on 2005-08-04 19:18:11 +0000

[sass]Honar and 10 D: You know what they say about people who live in glass houses... We will all begin to look to you guys for perfect english and netiquette if this keeps up.[/sass] _______________________________

Posted by rladew on 2005-08-04 19:19:20 +0000

it happens more often than you think. _______________________________

Posted by tgl on 2005-08-04 20:34:50 +0000

What happens if every parent of a 10 year old in Salem sends their kid to the Common to sell lemonade? Again: It's not about the money. It's not a food safety issue. It's not a public health issue. The Salem Common, one would presume, is a public resource. While anyone in the public should be able to make use of it, the City of Salem deems it necessary to limit commercial transactions on the land. In the case of vending, we have a public resource being used for private gain. I would expect the city (local government being an extension of the people's will, hopefully) to have a say in how this public resource is used. It's not a toy license, the article clearly states that the children in question are subcontractors for the sausage vender and are operating under his license. Sounds like a good argument for a strong, democratic government to act as a steward for limited public resources. --- The "Taxachusetts" label is no longer valid. We in MA pay 9.8% of our income tax to the state, which ranks 32nd out of the 50 states in state tax burden. The national average is 10.1%. (source)

Posted by rladew on 2005-08-04 20:38:32 +0000

Don't forget $100 USD for out of State driver's license conversion "fees". Very glad this doesn't tarnish Massachusetts ultra efficient and non-over taxing government. _______________________________

Posted by tendiamonds on 2005-08-04 20:42:32 +0000

<arrogance>I accept the challenge. (P.S. Note: no </arrogance>)

Posted by tgl on 2005-08-04 20:44:05 +0000

My post meant to address your point about regulators getting in the way. In case I wasn't clear: ---- In this case, regulation is helping the citizens of Salem by limiting the number of vendors that can operate at a time in this location. The harm the children might cause to the vendor is probably inconsequential, yes. I forget the philosophical position that describes how the morality of actions are determined, based upon the outcome to society if everyone chose those actions. For example: If your work has honor system coffeee at 25cents a cup (the collection used to purchase more coffee), is it moral to take coffee without paying if no one sees you swipe a cup? If we imagine everyone drinking without paying, then, we see how society (er, the coffee club at work) would falter. It's immoral to swipe coffee without paying! It's immoral to send your kid to sell lemonade on the prime public gethering place in town without the town's permission! As a Lynn resident -- and taxpayer! $200 to Big Brother on Monday -- I would not want every sq. ft. the boardwalk along Lynn Beach covered with sausage venders and Country Tyme peddlers.

Posted by tgl on 2005-08-04 20:48:05 +0000

Sure, fees, too. NH is doubling it's tolls (if you are a NH highway token user). While we're at it: Would you rather pay average MA property tax or the average NH property tax? Would you like to pay these taxes on the average MA salary or the average NH salary?

Posted by frame609 on 2005-08-04 21:26:41 +0000

There's the sales tax argument, too.

Posted by rladew on 2005-08-05 01:36:22 +0000

"I would not want every sq. ft. the boardwalk along Lynn Beach covered with sausage venders and Country Tyme peddlers." In theory of a truly free marketplace: this wouldn't happen though because of competition. Those who delivered a good product for a fair price would succeed and the people not making any money would go away. Who gets to decide how many is too many? Does TGL taxpayer of Lynn have a better answer than Mr. Smith taxpayer of Lynn? After you've formed a committee to collect the limited number of licenses, then you have to get another committee to enforce. If the public is sneering @ the above two groups, then another group has to waste time and effort in a touch/feely PR move. Just let the fuckin kids sell their lemonade! (Maybe Karl Rove planted the kids in salem to distract us from the war) _______________________________

Posted by rladew on 2005-08-05 01:40:18 +0000

Boo Hoo. NH now pays .50 instead of .25 in most places if yr using tokens. What about how NH, up unitl early August allowed folks to buy toll transponders for approx 2/3 less of what Massholes pay for them? NH just laughs all the way to the bank as more and more Mass folks come into NH for retail, alcohol, transportation, and firework endeavors. TGL: You honestly think you 've got a better tax situation than NH does? _______________________________

Posted by frame609 on 2005-08-05 08:28:43 +0000

My grandparents used to own a chicken farm before big buisness put them out of work. They're forced to sell little chunks of their (farm)land every year to pay off their property tax even though they're retired. It's not fair.

Posted by tgl on 2005-08-05 13:32:20 +0000

How is NH laughing all the way to the bank when it's selling transponders at a loss? Since the State of NH has lower retail taxes, then, the State can't exactly be reaping the benefits. Possibly indirectly via successful retail business driving up property values. I'd love to know how much NH makes on alcohol sales and transportation fees. I'd be willing to bet it's small fraction of the overall budget. I make more money working in MA than I could in NH, and I pay less in property taxes. So, yes, honestly, I've got a better tax situation.

Posted by tgl on 2005-08-05 13:40:22 +0000

TGL taxpayer and Mr . Smith taxpayer each get an equal vote in Lynn. So, the answer is that yes we get to decide. The free market is nice if we aren't constrained by limited resources. Public space is used by all, people trying to make a buck should not be able to set up shop willy nilly. What's wrong with the 10 year old kids selling lemonade on their parent's property? Why get in my way on public space?

Posted by tgl on 2005-08-07 18:09:04 +0000

Copy editors strike back.

Posted by rladew on 2005-08-08 00:16:39 +0000

Well waddya know? Two awesome things happened this week: I made it into print AND I learned how to spell license. I'm pretty sure I won't be having difficulty spelling that word any more. _______________________________