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Posted by pamsterdam on 2005-08-11 18:29:14 +0000

Does it matter? GbV & Pavement make me wanna shake my bum and believe in rock'n'roll all over again... Can that be wrong? I am [i]totally[/i] mad at BQ for calling them "clowns". Who you callin' "clown", clown? x

Posted by pamsterdam on 2005-08-11 18:37:27 +0000

Oh, and this just occurred to me while I was on the can: Guided by Voices are to the Ramones what Pavement are to the Clash. You've got your "let's play rock music like it's supposed to be, even though we're shit! yeah, let's play music like [the Beatles/the Who] and get drunk!" bands, and then you've got your "we're hipster art students who think way too much about stuff that doesn't matter, but sometimes we'll hit on something really transcendant... hey, look - beer!" bands. Or something. Wait - am I drunk?

Posted by rladew on 2005-08-11 19:48:23 +0000

Are they still clothed, or as BQ puts it are they "not wearing clothes anymore???" _______________________________

Posted by pamsterdam on 2005-08-11 20:46:02 +0000

Dude, they're totally naked! They're streakin'! C'mon!

Posted by bizquig3000 on 2005-08-12 17:32:31 +0000

Why do I sense I pissed somebody off? All I was trying to say is that, FWIW, your sacred cows there Rich might have done some fine work (and admittedly, to my ears, there's only so much of their body of work that I can stomach before it all kinda sounds the same). But these folks are directly responsible for: obnoxious "Steve Albini"-esque sounding records (not saying that his style doesn't have a place, but trying to rip off a guys anti-production quality doesn't automatically make their stuff great. Besides, listen to "Nevermind" and then listen to "In Utero" and try and tell me with a straight unbiased viewpoint that "Nevermind" doesn't kick the living bejeezus out of, well, most records), intertwined arpeggio guitar lines that pass as songwriting, perpetuating the myth that just because it's on an indie label it has to be better than everything else on the planet, emo, to name a few. Pavement and GbV at least gave a run for the mainstream a chance, and I think, then by extension, challenged themselves to appeal to another audience. Granted, both failed: "Brighten the Corners" was too down, and "Do The Collapse" was a little too 80s. Now I'm not saying mainstream success is the measuring stick for the accomplishments of a band. I just think, that to my eyes, this whole "Chicago scene" bullshit sometimes reeks of the high school cool kids clique mentality. And to my eyes, this mentality likes to dig trenches around their own elitism to keep everybody out. Pavement and GbV are responsible for: sloppy bands/shoddy recording qualities/overflooding the market with product/bankrupting micro-indies/anti-image images/irony as shield/Weezer (and by extension, the popularity of emo)/among others.

Posted by pamsterdam on 2005-08-12 17:40:33 +0000

Thing is, you're both right. Those great folks inspired some shitty pretenders to the throne, if you will. But having inspired shitty music doesn't actually make them culpable for the shitty music. Although it wouldn't exist if not for them. But on the other hand Elvis certainly didn't condone Bobby Darin. This reminds me of Monty Python talking about The Life of Brian. Originally they wanted to make a film poking fun at Jesus. Then they did their research and realised that Jesus was way cool. So they decided to poke fun at those who deserve it: his overzealous and misguided followers. Capiche? Anyway, I hadn't realised I was horning in on someone else's argument. Gentlemen, I leave this in your four capable hands. x

Posted by rladew on 2005-08-12 20:36:58 +0000

yes I admit I got defensive, but I'm not pissed off or angry. I stick to what I really like (like most human beings)most of the time and try different things when the time suits me and/ or Im curious or a trusted friend like BQ syas I should check them out. For example, your gonna find way more Albini, Zorn, Patton, Ornette Coleman, Ian Mackaye, Radiohead, Bad Brains etc. then you will Pavement, GBV, Neutral Milk Hotel, Interpol, Smog, Silver Jews, Red Krayola, David Grubbs/Gastr Del Sol etc. because a lot of the first group has ties to stuff I listened to in high school / early college as where the 2nd group puts me into more unfamiliar territory. I do happen to think, personally that both of the 2 groups still have clothes on. I think you'll find more naked emperors in the Coldplay or Staind camp(s). Sure there are hucksters in every genre, punk rock / indie / prog / whatever included... and god bless Bizquig for continuing to think critically about our faves instead of giving them a free pass. And for the record, in the last year I have picked up 'Slanted and Enchanted' and 'Crooked Rain x2' and GBV's B1000 and I enjoy them very much. crooked Rain x2 is probably my favorite with very loose indie-rock does jazz takes on Dave Brubeck style jazz instrumentals on '5-4 = Unity' (is that a reference to a 5/4 time signature?), the intimacy of 'Range Life' and 'Stop Breathin' the balls out rock of 'Unfair'... as far as the whole 'Chicago Scene' stuff, people have and always will categorize stuff whether we want them to or not. that whole DVD's idea is to go from city to city and have some pretty cool bands from each city play in abandoned houses about to be burned down. I throughly enjoyed the DC one, and now Im psyched about the Chicago one, not b/c of some Chicgo asthetic, but because I like a few of the bands and i like the people who are in charge of putting out the dvd.. I also thought people would appreciate a few yucks out of a new and scary Todd Trainer pic (yikes Im still having nightmares)... nuff said for now me thinks... _______________________________

Posted by rladew on 2005-08-13 01:50:28 +0000

Pam, sorry, BTW, into roping you in as a pawn to quibble w/ BQ about meaningless indie rock bullshit. probably not a very fair thing to do... _______________________________

Posted by frame609 on 2005-08-13 07:38:20 +0000

I am the Switzerland of this convo.

Posted by pamsterdam on 2005-08-13 08:37:01 +0000

I think I'm the Poland.

Posted by tgl on 2005-08-14 03:45:41 +0000

Don't forget Poland!

Posted by tgl on 2005-08-14 03:47:23 +0000

My rule of thumb: Don't do whatever Todd Trainer does.