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Posted by rladew on 2005-10-28 00:46:39 +0000

surely the ommission of David Lee Roth's 'Crazy From the Heat'(Hyperion) is a grave mistake... _______________________________

Posted by tgl on 2005-10-28 12:54:34 +0000

17 for me, plus an attempt at Gravity's Rainbow. What's so special about 1923? Other than it means "Ulysses" does not need to be considered.

Posted by Honar the librarian on 2005-10-28 13:35:38 +0000

I think stuff published after '22 is the cutoff point that google is making to distinguish copyrighted materials. Plus I beat you, tgl, 21 read and 5 attempted. I still feel a little bit like a philistine though. I feel even more like a philistine because I still don't have any real interest in reading a good chunk of the list.

Posted by tgl on 2005-10-28 14:24:06 +0000

Sort of related: On the morning train I saw a lady marking her place in a Salem Public Library stampedbook (maybe she purchased it...) by folding the page corner. Any thoughts? It was a hardcover.

Posted by cdubrocker on 2005-10-28 15:11:22 +0000

Wrong and philistine, unless she owns it.

Posted by G lib on 2005-10-28 15:20:33 +0000

That is SO not cool. Library books are someone's property (the library's), and that lady was borrowing soemeone else's property and wrecking it. That's just plain rude. The reason why one should not dog-ear a book: The paper gets weak along the crease, and often times the corner falls off after a couple of years when the general integrity of the paper starts to weaken. Hardcover books are meant to last for a while, are printed on good paper (generally). Libraries, who are usually underfunded, need to make sure that these books are treated nicely, so that they can last for as long as someone might want to read them. That lady on the train is really a criminal. TGL-- if you see her again, you need to put her under citizen's arrest. Paperbacks are a different story-- they are printed on cheap paper with cheap ink, and are meant to be disposed of. Folding the corner of a library paperback is just rude. That's why libraries always give out bookmarks. ______________ Thank you mama, for making me gold pants...

Posted by tgl on 2005-10-28 15:40:13 +0000

When I saw her do it, I coughed and gave a quizzical look. Not sure my reproach was forceful enough.

Posted by rladew on 2005-10-28 15:51:38 +0000

was it "Crazy from the Heat"? _______________________________

Posted by frame609 on 2005-10-28 16:07:14 +0000

27 read, six attempted. Dog-earers don't piss me off as much as propping the book up tent-style instrad of using a bookmark. Spines get destroyed. Grrrr.

Posted by rladew on 2005-10-28 16:20:45 +0000

I love libraries. I really do. There are all sorts of things the public does that I frickin hate, but then, maybe Im just cynical, but when I go to the library to see if something is there, I expect it to be sort of mangled. Its way easier most times for me to just bypass the "borrowing" period and the late fees and the e-mails and the bookmark etiquette etc in Libraries and just go to the store and buy a book. If the library is free to me, I cant see how I can govern the behavior of others who also pay nothing to use the library. It would be fabulous if something like common courtesey existed among the mass populice, but I have never seen mass examples of it. Individuals will always surprise and delight me. The masses always leave me desiring my own private property. _______________________________

Posted by tgl on 2005-10-28 16:26:57 +0000

The Public Library is not free! It's supported by taxes.

Posted by Honar the librarian on 2005-10-28 16:42:58 +0000

I have to confess that, even though I've had official preservation training, I am terribly mean to my own books, especially with regard to tenting, or even worse (especially when I was in college), the pencil as book mark (I am much more respectful of other people's books). With regard to the woman on the train, I had a similar experience a few weeks ago on the 66--a middle aged man was reading Ringo Starr's autobiography, and unerlining what appeared to be random words, in pen! It had BPL edge stamps, and I sat there trying to decide if I thought the book was recent enough to still be in circulation, or if it had been de-accessioned, and this man was mutilating his own book picked up from a Library booksale. It's just so hard to tell in these days of publishing plenty and minimal shelf space. I tried to find a quick hand-out on the care and handling of library books, but didn't see anything particularly good--I was thinking we could all print them out, and just hand them to people we saw behaving badly.

Posted by rladew on 2005-10-28 17:13:28 +0000

dont get so technical TGL. when I walk throught the door, no one at the library (yet) has their hand out for another fee or charge. Thats all I meant by free. If we're going the taxpayer route with this argument, if taxpayers are paying for the books, taxpayers can handle said books in all kinds of ways that people on this board would disapprove of. Are we going to raise library taxes and put a library task force out on the streets? People suck, I agree. But I don't see a solution to this particular problem. It was said earlier that these books aren't public property, they are library property. If we are all paying for the library, isn't the library public? I dont think you can expect private ownership qualities from a public institution. It would be nice if you could, but, again: people suck. _______________________________

Posted by tgl on 2005-10-28 17:21:54 +0000

I don't think people suck. That's partly why I'm a liberal. I agree that library property is public property. Because it's public property, we have a duty to manage the property in the best interests of the community. Another liberal idea. You could even call it a Judeo-Christian idea as it is related to stewardship of resources. I don't think I'm being technical. I try to be aware of who and how the costs of the goods and services I use are paid for. Yeah there's no transactional cost to walk into the library and take out a book, we all pay for the privilege though. To shrug it off as free is to perpetuate the mindset that individuals can exist wholely without the help of the community. I think that's a false proposition for everyone, no matter how wealthly they are.

Posted by frame609 on 2005-10-28 17:26:16 +0000

I think people suck, and I think I'm pretty liberal. Hmmmm.

Posted by tgl on 2005-10-28 17:27:05 +0000

Why should refraining from defacing or vandalising a book be a private ownership quality? I view it as the opposite. You own the book, do whatever you want it, I don't care. However, public property should be treated in the best interests of the community for which it serves. Lynn is full of litterers by the way. It's shocking.

Posted by tgl on 2005-10-28 17:28:41 +0000

All things being equal (that's the rub, we are a long way away from equality of opportunity), people will do the right thing.

Posted by rladew on 2005-10-28 17:51:27 +0000

Should Should Should: How do you plan on enforcing this? _______________________________

Posted by rladew on 2005-10-28 17:57:59 +0000

When I say people suck, I'm talking about people en masse. All you have to do to ensure stupid public activity is gather a group of people in one place and see what happens. Ever been to an airport? You could have said airport be full of Nobel Prize winners. As a collective whole, I'd hypotheisize collective intelligence would be about the same in that airport full of Nobels as some of the remedial "detention" style classes I saw in High School. (Or the Mass pike toll collectors on a good day) I love individuals, though. Every one of us has so many awesome qualities, and I'd be willing to bet this is the largest amout of library users. How is "Duty" enforced? What do you do when someone breaks their duty? I go to Barnes and Noble and bypass the bullshit. _______________________________

Posted by frame609 on 2005-10-28 18:02:04 +0000

Mike Simons should move to Lynn. Oh, snap!

Posted by rladew on 2005-10-28 18:14:46 +0000

who that is? _______________________________

Posted by Honar the librarian on 2005-10-28 18:30:33 +0000

Damn, frame, even I wasn't gonna go there. Although, he is from Billerica.

Posted by G lib on 2005-10-28 18:38:27 +0000

Oh, Alex Z, I miss you! "Billerica" is one of my favorite Hip T songs... ______________ Thank you mama, for making me gold pants...

Posted by Honar the librarian on 2005-10-28 18:39:27 +0000

Mike Simons is a member of my dating hit parade--he comes after the illiterate (ok, so maybe it should be my make-out hit parade). Also a former camper of frame's.

Posted by cdubrocker on 2005-10-28 18:45:11 +0000

Well, that's the point. You can't enforce it, and I don't think it should be enforced (although there could be preventive measures like posters or whatever). There's always going to be some thoughtless, purposeful maltreatment of books, and those of us who actively use their public libraries can bemoan it, and those of us don't use them so often can be happy with their private book collection. Still, something like dog-earing a library book when all you'd have to do is put a scrap of paper between the pages is a pretty annoying thing to behold.

Posted by frame609 on 2005-10-28 18:49:37 +0000

He's a former Ecology staff member who, apparently, is a litterbug. Too funny.

Posted by Honar the librarian on 2005-10-28 18:56:36 +0000

Apparently librarians and library staff are the worst offenders for intentional book mutilation. Sort of like most arsonists are firemen.

Posted by tgl on 2005-10-28 19:11:21 +0000

I disagree: Groups of people are smarter than individuals. People, collectively, make the proper choice. That's why free markets work (given freely available, truthful information). That's why democracies work. Going to B&N for books, sending children to private schools, living in gated communities, weakens the bonds of our society. Duty is enforced when people feel part of a community. We can't be a community if people increasingly decide to opt out. Yes, everyone is free to live as a hermit, that's your personal choice. However, there are very, very few people in our society that actually pull off living like hermits.

Posted by tgl on 2005-10-28 19:16:39 +0000

I'm not advocating enforcement. I'm trying to illustrate my world view. If people are aware of their community (education) and aware of their impact on the community (education) then people would treat library books properly (education).

Posted by rladew on 2005-10-28 19:52:38 +0000

Where do we have the existence of a truly free market? (refer to all the bickering surrounding the lemonade stand in Salem, MA a few months ago if you think we have a free market) I have yet to see that anywhere, let alone the US... _______________________________

Posted by tgl on 2005-10-28 19:59:01 +0000

I'd say we are (hopefully) moving to freer markets. Even in the US, the free flow of information can be disrupted, that's true. As an individual investor, do you prefer the US markets or the Chinese markets?

Posted by tgl on 2005-10-28 20:01:08 +0000

Crafty edit... I think local limitations and regulations on how companies use up natural resources is small potatoes compared to excise taxes, corporate welfare, fradulent accounting, and bogus financial filings.

Posted by rladew on 2005-10-28 20:06:40 +0000

I think what yr advocating, TGL, is a good ideal if yr reading it in a textbook,or seeing it some type of clinical or labratory setting, but at this very moment in time do you have more faith in yr ability to care and provide for yourself, or do you have more faith for the town of Lynn / the USA to care and provide for you? I realize I'm taking this to an absolute extreme and it needs to have a super delicate mix of both... but I would jump out on a limb and say that you will reap larger rewards if you focus on yourself first. If you can work towards making yrself and yr family happy and healthy, you'll have more energy to help other people outside of yr private network reach that status. _______________________________

Posted by rladew on 2005-10-28 20:09:47 +0000

thats a good question, TGL. Given what (limited) investing I've done, I would say the US. Sadly, I dont know enough / (much of anything) about Chinese markets. ...Shamefully ignorant I'm afraid. :( _______________________________

Posted by tgl on 2005-10-28 20:23:11 +0000

I'm not advocating for the State to take care of my every need. On the contrary, I'm advocating that people need to take care of the State. (Whoa... shades of Kennedy there, "Ask not", etc., etc.) I do support a strong safety net, yes. I think free people, given a choice, given an opportunity, do not want to be taken care of by the State. The American Dream is not a welfare check. Sounds like you're on the Ayn Rand Objectivist boat. I haven't read "The Fountainhead" yet, it's on the list, though. Maybe I'll have an epiphany. But until then: If you neglect the public sphere, you might as well be neglecting yourself. I see everyone interconnected, is probably the best way to put it.

Posted by pamsterdam on 2005-10-28 23:00:03 +0000

(wide eyed amazement) You dated one of Frame's campers?

Posted by Honar the librarian on 2005-10-31 15:13:06 +0000

He actually tried to get me to go for a second one (camper that is)as well, but somehow that one just didn't click.

Posted by frame609 on 2005-10-31 17:35:37 +0000

I tried to hook Honor up with Zeke, but she wasn't having it.

Posted by Miriam on 2005-11-02 23:04:37 +0000

I'm pretty sure I've read 23 of them, but 3 I've only read part of because I got so bored.

Posted by rladew on 2005-11-03 00:42:29 +0000

Zeke, aka "Capote" _______________________________

Posted by frame609 on 2005-11-03 05:11:42 +0000

Rich is 100% right- the similarities between Zeke and Truman Capote are stunning.

Posted by mr. mister on 2005-11-14 04:28:23 +0000

snow crash is the only book at the Copley Library that I want to read. I am going for it! I can read!

Posted by frame609 on 2005-11-14 07:02:06 +0000

Zeke, you reading this?

Posted by bizquig3000 on 2005-11-14 18:47:51 +0000

I read 17: Catch 22, Catcher in the Rye, Crying of Lot 49, Grapes of Wrath, Great Gatsby, Lolita, Lord of the Flies, Neuromancer, 1984, One Flew over the Cuckoo's Nest, Portnoy's Complaint, Prime of Miss Jean Brodie, Sun Also Rises, To Kill a Mockingbird, Tropic of Cancer, Watchmen, White Noise. Never finished 8: All the King's Men, Gravity's Rainbow, I, Claudius, Infinite Jest, A Light in August, Naked Lunch, Sound and the Fury, Their Eyes Were Watching God.

Posted by tgl on 2005-11-14 18:50:39 +0000

How about your top ten unread books. I can say mine would look much like Douthat's.

Posted by Miriam on 2005-11-14 19:41:35 +0000

I went to Israel for a semester in high school in part to avoid reading Grapes of Wrath and writing the subsequent term paper on it. Wanted to read One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest in 7th or 8th grade, but my mom thought it would scar me for life. Still haven't gone back for it. Can't remember if I read Tropic of Cancer or Tropic of Capricorn. Either way, it wasn't that memorable. Didn't finish All the King's Men. Saw the TV version of Their Eyes Were Watching God; it was pretty good. Enticing enough to eventually pick it up or borrow it from someone.

Posted by Miriam on 2005-11-14 19:42:43 +0000

nice.

Posted by Honar the librarian on 2005-11-14 20:31:51 +0000

Ahh, tgl, me too. I own and have started but not finished 1,2,5, and 9 (I'm only missing the last book of 2) ; own, but have never even started, 7 and 10; have read and enjoyed 3 and 4 ; have read some of 6 (excerpts for class, I remember little to none) ; and I have never even seriously contemplated reading any Leo Strauss, although I've heard rumours that he's my kind of misunderstood philosopher.

Posted by Miriam on 2005-11-14 20:34:21 +0000

I think I may have read the entire Aeneid in high school. We translated most of the 6th book of it in Latin class Junior year.

Posted by Honar the librarian on 2005-11-14 20:44:42 +0000

I actually won my copy of the Aeneid at a Massachusetts Junior Classical League geekathon my sophomore year in highschool, and never even cracked it 'til my sophomore year in college, when it was assigned. I found the description of Priam's death and the sacking of Troy to be one of the most moving bits of literature I'd ever read. I can't remember why I gave up at the end--usually if you make it that far, you finish (of course, I've never read the last book of the Republic, either).

Posted by frame609 on 2005-11-14 20:49:57 +0000

I have never had any urge to read Proust. Tried the Brothers K twice, Ulysses once (book club, yeah!).

Posted by dawnbixtler on 2005-11-14 20:50:18 +0000

0 for 10! Actually started Ulysses twice, never finished. I get to the 'no puctuation' part, and start thinking about other things, like bark on trees or if I own a bicycle-pump adapter for soccer balls. I have read Anna Karenina.

Posted by tgl on 2005-11-14 20:52:12 +0000

I recited the first couple paragraphs of the Aeneid on my way to third place in the NH Advanced Latin recitation contest in 1991. 3rd of three. No. 2 wore a toga, which I think is sort of a suck-up move.

Posted by Miriam on 2005-11-14 21:18:35 +0000

Ah, JCL! I loved those conventions. I was our ace-in-the-hole when it came to mythology. That was always the test I took there. Good geeky times...

Posted by pamsterdam on 2005-11-14 21:36:15 +0000

25. I never finished Infinite Jest. Oh, how I tried... Animal Farm George Orwell Are You There God? It's Me, Margaret Judy Blume Atonement Ian McEwan Beloved Toni Morrison Catch-22 Joseph Heller The Catcher in the Rye J.D. Salinger A Clockwork Orange Anthony Burgess The French Lieutenant's Woman John Fowles Go Tell it on the Mountain James Baldwin The Grapes of Wrath John Steinbeck The Great Gatsby F. Scott Fitzgerald A House for Mr. Biswas V.S. Naipaul Invisible Man Ralph Ellison The Lion, The Witch and the Wardrobe C.S. Lewis Lolita Vladimir Nabokov Lord of the Flies William Golding Midnight's Children Salman Rushdie Native Son Richard Wright 1984 George Orwell A Passage to India E.M. Forster Slaughterhouse-Five Kurt Vonnegut Their Eyes Were Watching God Zora Neale Hurston To Kill a Mockingbird Harper Lee To the Lighthouse Virginia Woolf White Teeth Zadie Smith

Posted by tgl on 2005-11-15 13:48:09 +0000

I have that adapter if you need it.

Posted by dawnbixtler on 2005-11-15 15:16:45 +0000

I think I do need one...

Posted by Miriam on 2005-11-15 16:13:56 +0000

In Nashville I think the public library is supported by high schoolers' late fees. One girl I work with owes $500. I asked if she burned the book. Apparently, not.

Posted by rladew on 2005-11-15 17:49:22 +0000

Ten unrelated, unlisted books I have to read soon (at the top of my book cue - not necessarily novels / fiction right now - sorry) -Road to Serfdom (F. A. Hayek) -The Dirt (Tommy Lee et al. w/ Nick Strauss) -The Wrong Stuff (Bill "Spaceman" Lee) - [my apologies to frame!] -The Other Hollywood: The Uncensored Oral History of the Porn Film Industry: Legs Mcneil -Enlightened Democracy: The Case for the Electoral College: Tara Ross -Samaritan: Richard Price -As Serious as Your Life: Valerie Wilmer (chronicle of free jazz in the 60's Albert Ayler, Cecil Taylor, Coltrane etc) -Higher Ground : Stevie Wonder, Aretha Franklin, Curtis Mayfield, and the Rise and Fall of American Soul: Craig Werner - Choosing Death: The Improbable History of Death Metal and Grindcore: Albert Mudrian and John Peel -Radio: the Book : Steve Warren _______________________________

Posted by tgl on 2005-11-18 13:27:24 +0000

Now we are getting somewhere. 11/20

Posted by tgl on 2005-11-18 13:35:27 +0000

New comment links to last page?

Posted by tgl on 2005-11-18 13:44:41 +0000

This new comment forces the other new comment from the newsgroup.

Posted by frame609 on 2005-11-18 17:23:56 +0000

Some geek I am- only read eight of those.

Posted by tgl on 2005-11-18 17:37:36 +0000

Some geek I am - new comments link doesn't go to "last page".

Posted by Honar the librarian on 2005-11-18 21:21:20 +0000

Now I feel really lame. It's one thing to have only read a fifth of the official books, because we all know that reading them all is kinda a stupid goal, but I really thought I'd be doing better than 45% of the geek novels. And a mere 60% of the top 5! And I'd never even heard of 12, 14, and 20. I'm going to have to turn in my geek badge. All those hours of time, wasted! Anyone want to play on-line diplomacy?

Posted by rladew on 2005-11-18 21:31:37 +0000

Hey TGL - from a webmaster's perspective - how many posts short are we of pushing "the impending impeachment" to 3 pages? ;) _______________________________

Posted by frame609 on 2005-11-18 21:38:42 +0000

Never heard of Watchmen? We'll take care of this tonight.

Posted by Miriam on 2005-11-20 14:18:23 +0000

Lame.