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Posted by tgl on 2005-12-21 17:25:39 +0000

Sucker!

Posted by Null Protocol on 2005-12-21 17:28:20 +0000

assholes. they should all get fired.

Posted by Miriam on 2005-12-21 17:33:14 +0000

I'm not a proponent of strikes, but I think the problem is not that salaries are too high, but that health insurance is astronomical. If retiree benefits were affordable, why would this be an issue. I think the courts should fine the insurance companies for gouging prices rather than the union for standing their ground with an uncompromising employer. That said, I'm sure that what we're hearing isn't the whole truth from either side.

Posted by Null Protocol on 2005-12-21 17:36:07 +0000

assholes. they should all get fired

Posted by Miriam on 2005-12-21 20:27:14 +0000

why? because the city's trying to screw them?

Posted by Miriam on 2005-12-21 20:32:47 +0000

I just had a big debate about this with my grandpa, who used to be an exec at Midas in the 70s...he was looking at things from the management perspective. Thankfully, he's 88 and can't put together a solid argument why protecting worker benefits is a good idea. I think that the union should've tried to increase the retirement age and secure the benefits rather than strike.

Posted by Null Protocol on 2005-12-21 20:39:24 +0000

simple: all of them are essential workers that are affecting MILLIONS of (innocent commuters whom have nothing to do with disputing management) people trying to get to work. It is stated in clear terms by state legislature that they are breaking the law. If they are that unhappy with their job, welcome to America! find another job... if not go back to work before you get fired (which you should be anyway at this point)

Posted by dawnbixtler on 2005-12-21 20:42:35 +0000

I love how Null Protocol has become a state sponsered liberal this week.

Posted by frame609 on 2005-12-21 20:45:11 +0000

It's like he's been drinking the water or something.

Posted by dawnbixtler on 2005-12-21 20:50:27 +0000

What's funny is that when Null P. goes liberal, I actually went conservative on this one. I don't agree with him here. So they might get fired. Well maybe yes, it's a strike. But it shouldn't be illegal...

Posted by Miriam on 2005-12-21 21:15:35 +0000

I thought that not supporting unions was a conservative thing.

Posted by dawnbixtler on 2005-12-21 21:31:02 +0000

I'm not talking about unions. I'm talking about striking... It's "illegal" not to go to work?!? Bullshit.

Posted by Miriam on 2005-12-21 21:58:07 +0000

I'm with you! I'm not generally in favor of strikes (they harm the workers and those that are affected by their work), but I'm am in favor of workers...and their rights...including not working.

Posted by tgl on 2005-12-22 13:14:33 +0000

The strike is illegal. Certain professions and public sector jobs are prohibited by law from striking. These people feel so strongly about their cause that they are excepting the punishment, which is two days pay for every day striked. In effect, they are losing three days pay (the lost day of work plus the two fines). Sounds like they are putting their money where their mouth is. What would it cost the city to hire new transit workers and train them? Probably more than it will cost the city in lost fares and lost productivity.

Posted by tgl on 2005-12-22 13:15:57 +0000

The local union voted to strike over the objections of the national office. Another case of "local control" gone awry, eh?

Posted by mr. mister on 2005-12-22 14:03:07 +0000

It seems like there should be a solution for this one. Retirement age for IRA's is 67 (I believe), these people are getting a pension at 57. Maybe that isn't the only problem. But to just walk off the train for that seems selfish.

Posted by Null Protocol on 2005-12-22 14:23:11 +0000

I feel STRONGLY that these Unions are bullying innocent people to get their way. I dont particularly give a shit that they (the union) think they are being big / generous individual employees by donating 3x their pay every time they strike. They are fucking more with regular everyday NYC people who are just trying to make it through the day than they are with the powers that be @ their jobs. If they are this unhappy, no one has a gun to their heads. They would be best to seek work elsewhere if they are truly in search of what T. Jefferson called "The Pursuit of Happiness" ....another worthless .02 from NP

Posted by Miriam on 2005-12-22 14:38:18 +0000

Just im'd a friend in NYC who lives in Brooklyn but isn't going home lately. He's been sleeping on friends couches and floors in Manhattan...and doing a lot of walking.

Posted by tgl on 2005-12-22 14:51:26 +0000

They are not "donating" their pay (not sure on this point, I admit, who is collecting the fine?). They are paying the fine imposed for the illegal action that they are taking. That's taking personal responsibility for their actions. The workers have indeed decided to purse happiness by not going to work. They have all quit, which was what you are saying they should do if they aren't happy with their job. So, I don't see your argument. The most cost effective route for the city is to entice the trained and qualified workers back onto the job. NYC transit workers are also "regular everyday NYC people" also, aren't they?

Posted by tgl on 2005-12-22 14:53:19 +0000

I admit I have no idea what they are striking _for_. I'm also willing to wager that most of us don't. Less the facts, I'm willing to suspend judgement on their actions, and allow that the union has a justified grievance.

Posted by Null Protocol on 2005-12-22 14:57:30 +0000

not only is it selfish, but I was just reading in the NY Times that this Union leader Roger Toussaint has the stones (or lack thereof) to turn the entire transit matter into an issue of skin color (aka playing the race card): “Had Rosa Parks answered the call of the law instead of the higher call of justice, many of us who are driving buses today would instead be at the back of the bus.”. So its now racist and unjust for transit workers to do what they're paid for. Got it. Ok. Merry christmas to you too Roger. (IN Jail! - say hi to Mom for me - I'm gonna stay here! I like it ! It's nice. Hello dad? I'm in Jail! Ha ha ha ha ha)

Posted by Null Protocol on 2005-12-22 15:01:30 +0000

if by "regular" you mean not giving a shit about the rest of NYC'ers who dont happen to be lucky enough to have a union job w/ the transit authority, then, yes.

Posted by Null Protocol on 2005-12-22 15:03:08 +0000

I can see it now: pretty soon another pro-health argument will be raised to strike. If you are for justice, racial equality, physical fitness, the only thing you can do is NOT work. Please.

Posted by tgl on 2005-12-22 15:04:14 +0000

The fine is $1 million a day which doesn't seem right if that's supposed to be 3X payroll for the day? MTA spends $333,333.33 on payroll per day for union workers? If it's costing the city $400 million a day to not have transit, isn't this a vital service that the city is currently _underpaying_ for? If NYC was run as a business (Hey! Bloomberg!) and I was a supplier to the NYC and I knew my $333,333.33 product was worth $400 million to them, you're damn straight I'd raise a rucus to get paid more. Sounds like gridlock isn't as bad as predicted. Seeing as this is the first transit strike in 25 years, it sounds like the "regular NYC people" should suck it up (which they are quite capable of doing, God love them). Transit workers get fucked for 9000 days, "regular NYC people" for 3. Cry me a river. (source)

Posted by tgl on 2005-12-22 15:05:15 +0000

No, I don't mean that. I was asking what you meant.

Posted by Miriam on 2005-12-22 15:07:45 +0000

You're living under the assumption that all unions take advantage of others. The fact is, benefits and days off wouldn't exist without unions. I have my great grandfather's charter membership card to the furrier's union in NYC in 1907 and his second, which talked about allowing for a 6 day work week instead of seven on the first card. Work has changed for the better for ALL Americans because of unions. Get off your high horse.

Posted by Miriam on 2005-12-22 15:08:49 +0000

Word!

Posted by Null Protocol on 2005-12-22 15:09:17 +0000

Good point about donating. There is 3x the dollar amount for each individual that they will not be getting - they will have to give $$ for fines - and Im sure that losing that money will heurt those workers and their family, but I'm supposed to believe that that is considered responsibility? Teachers get paid crap too, but who is hurt the most when they strike? certainly not the powers that be - it's the kids, man!. The transit workers should get back to work for the kids. Everything I do, I do for the kids.

Posted by mr. mister on 2005-12-22 15:09:18 +0000

Why don't we all just walk off our jobs if we don't like them. Because we'll get fired. That's it I'm outta here. I'M ON STRIKE

Posted by Null Protocol on 2005-12-22 15:19:11 +0000

59.5 is the IRS's threshold. (despite my incorrect 65.5 initial fig oops) For some light bedtime reading, I'd reccomend irs.gov's tearjerker Publication 590

Posted by tgl on 2005-12-22 15:22:06 +0000

Accepting the punishment for your crime is being personally responsible for your actions. FYI: Don't ever mention about doing it "for the kids" to a teacher. I made that mistake last night. I was quickly informed that precisely because teachers are paid so poorly it's a travesty that non-teachers expect teachers to work after hours or extra days simply because it's "for the kids". Society doesn't value education (or we would pay for more of it). We shouldn't expect teachers to sacrifice themselves when we aren't willing to make the sacrifice ourselves.

Posted by tgl on 2005-12-22 15:25:27 +0000

Was Fagen.

Posted by Null Protocol on 2005-12-22 15:35:17 +0000

I didnt mean to imply "above and beyond" or extra hours - just the job itself. As far as being a parent of a child myself that I try to read to every single night - I heartily agree parents bear the brunt of responsibility in ensuring a good education for their kids. How are kids or any full time working parents (who must go with no pay or pay another day care entity) benefitting from those teachers deemed responsible enough to right all of society's wrongs by striking and not going to work?

Posted by Null Protocol on 2005-12-22 15:58:39 +0000

right you are. Did you ever see the was Not was animated piece they had sandwhiched in with the "demos" of Mike Judge's Beavis and Butthead, and aeon flux on MTV's "Liquid television"? Classic, although I am going to cry and lie on the floor in the fetal position as I am now realizing that that was like 15 years ago...

Posted by tgl on 2005-12-22 16:10:49 +0000

mr. mister: A Union Of One.

Posted by tgl on 2005-12-22 16:55:05 +0000

Children and parents with full-time jobs obviously do not benefit during a strike. Could you see the benefit to children of having teachers that feel they are being compensated equitably? A parent loses money by not having the school to "take care" of the child during the strike, however, the child gains by having happier, productive teachers the rest of the school year. Aren't all teachers deemed responsible enough to right all of society's wrongs by teaching?

Posted by tgl on 2005-12-22 17:23:14 +0000

A group of investors who come together for economic benefit are called a corporation. A group of workers who come together for economic benefit are called lazy assholes, er, a union. Martin Kessler, fellow tooth-worker, Lynner and borderline wacko, gave me this gem yesterday: "The only time we can be entrepreneurial is when we negotiate our first paycheck". The objectivist idea of individuals working selfishly is all well and good until the wheels hit the road. It is a tiny fraction of society that have the opportunity to live entrepreneurially.

Posted by mr. mister on 2005-12-22 17:26:19 +0000

Well what if Nuclear Power Plant workers just walked off their jobs and we had a huge meltdown in Hampton Beach. or cops or doctors. It's a major shock to the system to prove a point. The means don't justify the ends in this case. It sets a bad precedent.

Posted by frame609 on 2005-12-22 17:31:07 +0000

That's what a strike is, though- it's a show of solidarity to let everyone know that services provided by strikees are crucial. Everyone who has been bitching about how unfair the NYC strike is for commuters is proving the strikers' point- the service they provide IS essential. If all of the record store clerks in Boston went on strike, no one would give a shit.

Posted by tgl on 2005-12-22 17:32:19 +0000

Which is why those professions are also prohibited from striking (well, except doctors, I don't think they unionize). The penalties for cops or nuclear technicians or air traffic controllers striking are higher than the penalty for bus drivers. I don't see the strike as trying to prove a point, more like trying to receive pay and benefits commensurate with the service they provide.

Posted by tgl on 2005-12-22 17:41:01 +0000

Are the oil companies just trying to prove a point when oil goes up to $70 a barrel?

Posted by tgl on 2005-12-22 17:41:51 +0000

Me and NP would be down there at Twisted Village "crossing the picket line".

Posted by frame609 on 2005-12-22 17:43:55 +0000

Scab!

Posted by Null Protocol on 2005-12-22 17:47:45 +0000

Could you see the benefit to children of having teachers that feel they are being compensated equitably? Absolutely, I can see the benefit. I find it tragic and stupid, though, that it has to come to a strike for teachers in an attempt to get more _________. Aren't all teachers deemed responsible enough to right all of society's wrongs by teaching? If I was brave enough to teach for a living, which I certainly am not, I would try to honestly ask myself that question frequently. It's a good question. (sorry I dont have a good answer)

Posted by mr. mister on 2005-12-22 17:49:32 +0000

I think it's cool and all. Power to the People. It's just that though. Noone would care if I didn't come to work. But those transit freaks have everyone walking around in the cold. It's a collective abuse of power to spite another collective abuse of power. bad vibes man instant kharma coal in the stocking

Posted by tgl on 2005-12-22 17:52:44 +0000

Yes, it's tragic and stupid that teachers have to resort to hurting the people they are most interested in helping in order to get cost of living increases. I think it's unfair to then blame them.

Posted by tgl on 2005-12-22 17:57:08 +0000

If you are missing that "special feeling" at work, you could always be a bus driver. They have openings in NYC right now. Feel the love!

Posted by frame609 on 2005-12-22 18:04:34 +0000

Three hundred thousand routes available!

Posted by mr. mister on 2005-12-22 18:18:09 +0000

Just what I always wanted my own route. I could be like Auto from the Simpsons

Posted by tgl on 2005-12-22 18:19:56 +0000

Pending a vote this afternoon, services in NYC will be up and running tomorrow. Total of 3 days on strike. The union represents 33,000 workers. By my calculations, they make $25,000 a year. Which is great if you are 25, single, and live with a couple roommates. Not so great if you are trying to support a family.

Posted by dawnbixtler on 2005-12-22 18:37:00 +0000

Well, the strike is over. Now, can all you commie/socialists stop complaining when it's OK/illegal to not work? :->

Posted by mr. mister on 2005-12-22 18:51:25 +0000

STRIKE STRIKE FIRST STRIKE

Posted by Miriam on 2005-12-22 18:56:51 +0000

Guess we won't know anything until they strike a bargain or go back on strike...with that agreed-to news blackout and all.

Posted by Null Protocol on 2005-12-22 19:17:24 +0000

awesome Damien fagen

Posted by Miriam on 2005-12-22 19:23:15 +0000

Anyone else notice how long this thread is without it going to a second page?

Posted by tgl on 2005-12-22 19:34:41 +0000

50 comments, no more, no less.

Posted by Null Protocol on 2005-12-22 19:43:04 +0000

withapologies to C4RT: instant Karma's gonna get you.

Posted by Null Protocol on 2005-12-22 19:46:35 +0000

yr goddam right Mr.Mr. If Maddie starts a temperature of 104+, I wont give much of a fuck if Dr. Carter's (Benton/Greene/Ross) boss is treating him fairly. ever hear of the hippocratic oath?

Posted by Null Protocol on 2005-12-22 20:01:17 +0000

thanks for reminding me that unions can help workers rights. With this particularcurrent event of the transit situation in NYC, all I can remember are negative union things like Jimmy Hoffa / teamsters and charlie Parker being precluded from playing anywhere because he didnt have the proper cabaret card. 10 years ago I worked as a seasonal UPS employee for3-4 months. almost $20 a paycheck for Union dues I couldn't take advantage of... nice!

Posted by Null Protocol on 2005-12-22 20:02:04 +0000

Tgl sez: Accepting the punishment for your crime is being personally responsible for your actions So If I accept "death by lethal injection", then I have dealt with murder responsibly?

Posted by Null Protocol on 2005-12-22 20:07:31 +0000

commie / socialists: please indulge me in explaining that a bit more...

Posted by Miriam on 2005-12-22 20:32:50 +0000

some docs are unionized...as are some doctoral students.

Posted by Miriam on 2005-12-22 20:34:29 +0000

per page?

Posted by Miriam on 2005-12-22 20:42:49 +0000

NP, you like to pick fights. It's fun.

Posted by dawnbixtler on 2005-12-23 01:00:09 +0000

Socialists want economic decisions made by popular opinion, not personal desire. Let the market and workers figure out how to proceed, not some regulation or law that says I have to go to a job.

Posted by tgl on 2005-12-23 02:55:53 +0000

I don't have that particular Live Skull album yet.

Posted by tgl on 2005-12-23 02:58:28 +0000

Can a union organizer answer this question: Are there any unionized medical doctors? I doubt it. So, Dr. Benton on the picket line is a straw doctor.

Posted by tgl on 2005-12-23 03:23:08 +0000

Individuals are responsible for their own actions. That's a conservative idea if I've ever spouted one. If you commit an act, with awareness of the consequences of the act, you take personal responsibility for that act. If you commit murder, knowing that the consequence will be the death of another human being, you are taking personal responsibility for that murder. So, no, murder is not a responsible act in and of itself. However, the murderer is personally responsible for the murder. That's why we punish the murderer even if they've been subjected to childhood abuse and mental anguish possibly "driving them to kill". When they decide to take the life of another person, it is a conscious decision knowing the results of their actions. As long as they are competent enough to understand the consequences of their actions, they are responsible for the outcomes of said actions. H. Moods, chime in here, I'm sure you probably had a semester or two on this stuff at St. John's. ---- Maybe I'd make more sense if I said, "acting responsibly" and "being responsible for your actions" do not result in the same outcomes. Doing doughnuts on your neighbor's lawn is not acting responsibly. Paying to fix the damage you caused is being responsbile for your actions. --- Social conservatives are always pointing to people on welfare or drug users or pregnant women as not being responsible for their actions. As wanting to have their cake and eat it too. This strike is not that case. The workers knew the consequences of their actions and chose to strike. They are not asking to be absolved. They are being responsible.

Posted by frame609 on 2005-12-23 05:21:51 +0000

Whoa! The Live Skull Fagen! Get outta school!

Posted by dawnbixtler on 2005-12-23 05:26:11 +0000

Can I get an amen?

Posted by tgl on 2005-12-23 13:29:56 +0000

It's also a socialist idea that workers can collectively bargain, is it not? At least, a capitalist driven by objectivism would scorn the idea that it's better to workers should band together for economic power.

Posted by Honar the librarian on 2005-12-25 15:16:25 +0000

I think the Platonic dialogues you want are the Apology, the Crito, and to a lesser extent, the Phaedo. You might also want to look at Paradise, Lost, and Schopenhauer's Prize Essay on the Freedom of the Will. I'm with tgl on this one in terms of personal responsibility. Conscious non-violent civil disobedience as an expression of political discontent is a very powerful, if blunt, instrument. Justice and law are not the same thing. You make some good points about personal repsonsibility, NP,and the difficulty of weighing one's needs with the needs of the greater good, but the logical result of your argument as I understand it is that Rosa Parks never should have kept sitting on the bus and the freedom riders were wrong to illegally integrate bus stations, wash rooms, etc. One may say that the MTA transit workers did not behave responsibly, that the arguments they use to justify their strike are fallacious, but that is very different from saying that the action of striking is necessarily wrong.