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Posted by bizquig3000 on 2006-07-20 19:10:21 +0000

To everyone in the stuggle, you're in our thoughts and prayers...

Posted by Travis on 2006-07-21 12:24:20 +0000

Hezbollah does not equal Lebanon I think we all need to remind ourselves that daily

Posted by G lib on 2006-07-21 13:00:34 +0000

I don't want to get into this discussion with you, Miriam, because I am VERY ANGRY WITH THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT. I think that these people are really the people that American Jews should be fundraising for. I love you, Miriam, but as much as I try, I just don't understand. People of Ridesde, hear me out before you flame.

Posted by G lib on 2006-07-21 15:24:50 +0000

(lorbering) No flaming? Not even an iota of discussion?

Posted by Miriam on 2006-07-21 15:35:03 +0000

I think you need to look at a lot more websites. Several of my coworkers were in Israel when all this started, and several of the teens I worked with this year are there for the summer; I have a vested interest in seeing Israel survive as a nation, that does not mean that I want Lebanon destroyed. I want my friends and family in Israel to live there, without the threat of bombs or terrorist attacks on a regular basis. Hizbollah does not currently allow for that possibility. All media is biased, and I think that you, as a librarian, should look at multiple sources before making harsh judgements about a situation from which you are entirely removed. Oh, and I love you, too...and don't expect you to understand.

Posted by Travis on 2006-07-21 15:37:42 +0000

flame me instead, I live on an island and the Atlantic is quite an effective firebreak - One of the worst examples of Orwellian madness in our times is that you can not decry the behaviour of Israel without being declared antisemitic. I live in Europe, My media has not been castrated by the anti defamation league / organised pro Israel lobby in the same way as the US press, and castrated is the right word. I watch babies dying and apartment buildings collapsing every night. This is the biggest issue to hit the world in some time, and yet Miriam's post was the first on the subject on RS - why is that??? Has no one else been thinking about it / wanting to say something? why havent we? Anyone scared of the reaction when they do speak? remember this? First they came for the Jews and I did not speak out because I was not a Jew. Then they came for the Communists and I did not speak out because I was not a Communist. Then they came for the trade unionists and I did not speak out because I was not a trade unionist. Then they came for me and there was no one left to speak out for me. The people of Lebanon are not responsible for Hezbollah, they are not Hezbollah's bridges, roads, airports, schools, ports, factories or apartment blocks that have been turned to dust and mangled wreckage. The 340 dead and 500,000 people displaced are not all Hezbollah. Let me make it clear, I am in no way a Hezbollah appologist, firing rockets randomly into cities is a despicable unforgivable act, as is carpet bombing peoples homes. If I had my way all terrorists involved in this conflict would be crucified on the road to Nazareth and left hanging up to rot as a warning to others. The sad fact is that the road would be lined with far more IDF uniforms than it would shemaghs. and the even sadder fact is that we all sit and watch and are scared to say anything. (yo Miriam, please dont take this as an attack, I disagree strongly with what you say but would fight and die for your right to say it)

Posted by Travis on 2006-07-21 15:42:56 +0000

hey, can u post some links of suggested reading? will do the same from my end when i get a chance

Posted by Miriam on 2006-07-21 15:43:31 +0000

I just wanted the conversation started...since we all seemed a little shy to kill friendships over it; I'm not offended by anyone's opinion. I know we're all for peace. The Middle East, however, is not peaceful. There are reporters, other than the one G pointed us to, however, that tell more than the accounts of past casualties and the incitement of anger over one-sidedness. Try this.

Posted by MF DU on 2006-07-21 16:06:59 +0000

---This is the biggest issue to hit the world in some time, and yet Miriam's post was the first on the subject on RS - why is that???--- I can only speak for myself. rladew, ladewtangclan, and null protocol all attempted to engage in political threads with what I felt were disastorous results. My 'MF DU' handle was created specifically to avoid political discussions / rehash of 'challenging' past RSN threads. Im happy to let you know what I think on political issues - just ask me at a bar or a restaurant or something. As far as RSN is concerened, all I know is Music, Movies, sports, and bullshit.

Posted by Miriam on 2006-07-21 16:11:02 +0000

The tag on my tea this morning read: "Fight for your opinions, but do not believe that they contain the whole truth, or the only truth." Charles A. Dana (1819-1897)

Posted by Travis on 2006-07-21 16:12:49 +0000

nice one.... I guess my point is that the fact that these things tend to end in disaster and stop people talking is the first step towards tyranny and repression, as Pastor Martin Niemöller so eloquently stated I do agree that politics goes very well with beer

Posted by G lib on 2006-07-21 18:01:08 +0000

Ouch! I didn't really expect that kind of harsh. I have been looking at source material and talking to people 'in the know' about Lebanon and the Middle East since the Israeli army started a humanitarian crisis in Lebanon by bombing the shit out of Lebanese civilian infrastructure. I linked to that article not because I'm a bad liberal librarian and should have looked at other articles, but because out of all of the articles I read, I thought (and still think) it's pretty accurate, and echoes my own sentiments on the subject. Like you, people I know are affected by this disaster: My co-worker's sister-in-laws are here, visiting, but the rest of her Lebanese family have had to flee for their lives-- she doesn't know if any of their family is safe. When it comes down to individuals, of course we want all people to be safe. But putting people aside, Israel deserves a right to exist (although I object to the use of the word 'her', in the Bush quote for SO many different reasons). Period. But I don't think that gives Israel a right to be an asshole. Israel has continuously been in the wrong (the asshole) when it comes to most political interactions with tits neighbors, and is only able to get away with it because of the careful Israeli and American maintenance of the view of Israel as 'victim', and Jewish-American dollars flowing into the country. I AM entirely removed from this situation, but have been trying to educate myself on this issue as much as I can. I understand the conflict fairly well, I just don't understand how so many of my otherwise egalitarian, liberal, fair, caring, bleeding-heart liberal friends are so blinded to the Israeli government's wrongs. Even some Israelis are saying the same thing. Ordinarily, I wouldn't express these ideas for exactly the reason that Trav has described it, 'fear of offending people.' However, now that the can of worms has been opened, there it is, my opinion.

Posted by buzzorhowl on 2006-07-21 18:03:54 +0000

Don't be so coy -- you've been expecting that kind of harsh all day.

Posted by Miriam on 2006-07-21 18:13:27 +0000

I remember a "lorbering" for it, actually!

Posted by Miriam on 2006-07-21 18:14:33 +0000

Do you want articles or emails from people in Haifa?

Posted by Miriam on 2006-07-21 18:28:44 +0000

I appreciate your fervor. I truly hope that your coworker's family is safe and well. The article you chose focussed mainly on past conflicts, when what we are currently seeing is being called "war." As were those. I'm not saying that it's nice to bomb another country, but you have to remember that it's happening on BOTH sides. Israelis are also fleeing their homes or living in their bomb shelters to avoid being blow to bits. I think that saying Israel is in the wrong to retaliate against a cross-border slaying and kidnapping is narrow-sighted at best. It was an act of war. I want it to end. I will, however, defend the rights of Israel to safeguard it's citizens, since I plan to be one someday.

Posted by Honar the librarian on 2006-07-21 18:43:43 +0000

I am a Zionist and I believe in Israel's right to exist as a state. (And yes, I understand that virtually every word in that sentence is fraught.) But when states begin to protect their territorial sovereignty by impinging on the sovreignty of others, we tread very dangerous waters. We enter a whirlpool when talking of acts of war perpetrated by non-sovereign nations (if such acts can actually be acts of war and not terrorism) justifying retaliation towards a sovereign nation. Too many atrocities have been committed on all sides and there is no room for blame, justification or retribution. It will not lead to peace, only to greater tragedy. In bombing Lebanese civilian infrastructure, Israel only further demonstrates the impossibility of the status quo's ability to achieve peace in the middle east.

Posted by Honar the librarian on 2006-07-21 18:44:19 +0000

I'm not sure that being entirely removed from the situation has anything to do with...well, anything. I don't have to have family and friends in Darfur to understand that the situation is untolerable. I don't have to support American foreign policy to be a patriot, and I don't have to support the Israeli foreign policy to be a Zionist.

Posted by tendiamonds on 2006-07-21 18:50:20 +0000

Wow.

Posted by tendiamonds on 2006-07-21 18:52:35 +0000

Everyone in the Middle East needs to go to kindergarten. Learn how to share and play nice. And take naps. And have snack time. And show-n-tell. And have totally brown bananas hucked across the room that have been hidden behind the door all year.

Posted by MF DU on 2006-07-21 18:53:04 +0000

I 'spose paving the whole entire holy land over and handing it over to Donald Trump to build some new casinos is out of the question?

Posted by pamsterdam on 2006-07-21 19:43:35 +0000

My dear darling Miriam, my heart aches for everyone affected by this. Honest. I would normally love to discuss this situation, which is indeed very upsetting. I am, as you know, a very opinionated young (well, not so young) lady. But I can't focus enough to give the subject the warranted attention. Once I've managed to pull by shit together, I will absolutely post my ramblings.

Posted by Miriam on 2006-07-21 20:02:14 +0000

Looking forward to it!

Posted by pamsterdam on 2006-07-21 20:04:51 +0000

Bless you and your merry manner. x

Posted by dawnbixtler on 2006-07-22 00:31:58 +0000

Word 'em up, 10D.

Posted by tendiamonds on 2006-07-22 10:08:12 +0000

Why don't you tell me one of your biggest fears?

Posted by tgl on 2006-07-22 10:58:08 +0000

"[I] don't expect you to understand". Which is exactly why the Middle East is so fucked up. I agree with 10D and MFDU: If you can't share the ball, take it away.

Posted by pamsterdam on 2006-07-23 10:34:52 +0000

Alright, my opinion may not be popular. In fact, I have a sneaking suspicion that it is ethnocentric, patronising, Liberal-thinking at its worst. But it is my opinion. I am open to having it challenged and/or changed. I do not have any learned authors or intriguing articles to cite, only my personal feeling. I strongly believe that the troubles experienced in the Middle East (and in Africa, and in the Indian subcontinent) are the fault of Europe, and by extension, the fault of the UN. In short - and using the term "we" very loosely - we have to take responsibility for the mess we made when creating borders and establishing regimes in these regions. We did not legislate for (or show any respect for) the following vital issues - issues which were known very well at the time and were simply ignored, for the sake of "cutting and running": 1. the historic problems between different religious and ethnic groups 2. the rights of current occupants (something Europeans also screwed up in colonies where they stayed on - such as in North and South America) Countries were established and abandoned. The sentiment was "You figure it out, we're outta here". As I said at the outset, my opinion may be ethnocentric and patronising. But even if it is, to sit back and say, "Oh, naughty Middle Eastern countries, misbehaving again" is surely both of those things as well. "We" created the problem. "We" dumped it in their laps. "We" must take responsibility for helping to sort it out. That's my take. I'm looking forward to hearing any and all reactions - both positive (I'm hopeful, right?) and negative.

Posted by pamsterdam on 2006-07-23 11:20:02 +0000

Colonialism see also: Neocolonialism Postcolonialism

Posted by tendiamonds on 2006-07-23 12:04:00 +0000

The problem in the Middle East is caused by religion. Anyone who has it and follows it is a problem. Any religion. All religion. You don't have to be a pious atheist like myself, just abandon whatever organized system you ascribe yourself to. The world, not just the Middle East, will be better for it. Same goes for money, now that I think of it, but I can't claim to be pious there.

Posted by pamsterdam on 2006-07-23 13:53:53 +0000

I'm sure you're being tongue-in-cheek 10D, but I can't help but respond. To say that "the problem in the Middle East is caused by religion" is extremely simplistic, and lets Europe off the hook far too easily. I know you're not a Christian, but your view bolsters the European/American Christian view that the Jews and Muslims have made their own bed and now they have to lie in it. Which is, my friend, pure and unadulterated bullshit. The fact is that the colonists made the proverbial bed and then took off. The bed which people in the Middle East are lying in was actually made (and fucked up) by Europe. What I'm saying is that the UN has an obligation to take responsibility for the mess that was made. It is unfair and - I feel - coldly calculated to allow people in the Middle East to obliterate one another. I am sure that this is part of the reason why these issues were not addressed in the first place when establishing these countries - the powers that were (and perhaps the powers that be) felt (or perhaps still feel) that if they kill each other off, problem solved. This cannot stand. You brought up religion, so I will address that: It's a popular tune to play, saying that religion is the root of all evil. But the problem is not in religion itself but in the way in which certain people (mis)interpret religion in order to further their own power/political games. My personal belief is that there are many paths one can choose, and no path is any better or worse than any other. It's easy to be (mis)led by those who wish to use our faith for their own gain, and that is the only route we must avoid.

Posted by tendiamonds on 2006-07-23 16:21:51 +0000

First, I must apologize. I should not have made a statement that could start an argument that I have little interest or energy to pursue. My statement was made in a tongue in cheek manner, however the content of it I think is true. Your simplistic summary that religion is evil, is not too far off the mark. Belief systems were formed by people to help understand the world around them. Religion was then formed around those belief systems to control those people. With contol comes power and greed. This is not the fallacy of religion, it is the _purpose_ of it. This is not necessarily evil, but it's not far from it. As this pertains to the Middle East, there are too many people believing contradictory things. Believing them to the core, and prepared to die for them. This predates the fucking up that Europe did in the area. It predates The Jewish Guy getting nailed to a cross there.

Posted by pamsterdam on 2006-07-23 20:07:45 +0000

You certainly didn't have to apologise, my dear. You know I still love you. Plus, you consistently make your points in a witty manner, which I always appreciate. The Jewish Guy line kills me. Point taken, point agreed (mostly*), but Pamsterdam's still pissed off at colonialism. *I can't agree that religion exists solely to control people, but I totally respect your reasons for believing that.

Posted by MF DU on 2006-07-23 20:39:19 +0000

"I should not have made a statement that could start an argument that I have little interest or energy to pursue." I couldn't agree more with the above idea and have thought it so many times in the past on RSN after opening up cans of worms that I never even thought about while quickly posting some quick political observation or thought. All in all 10D's thought here provides me with Another FANTASTIC reason to stick primarily to Music, Movies, Sports and bullshit. As a Unitarian who is intensely interested with religion, but wholly lacking one of his own, I start thinking of Lennon's Imagine all the sudden. Go ahead, call me a hippie.

Posted by tgl on 2006-07-23 22:43:20 +0000

Hippie.

Posted by dawnbixtler on 2006-07-24 07:53:18 +0000

OK, say some of the problems in the MiddleEast are Europe's fault. That doesn't mean they need to act further. In fact, I don't think Lebanon really wants Europe there, let alone Syria, Iraq and Iran. Maybe to help stop this current war, but to what end? Stay for 5 years again? To say "We tried and failed" is not a crime; it inhibits escalation, and it might be what the MidEast wants Europe to do. Call it "cut and run" if you want, but it has appeal to me.

Posted by dawnbixtler on 2006-07-24 07:53:37 +0000

Hippie

Posted by pamsterdam on 2006-07-24 10:07:55 +0000

Good point. I guess I'm just hair-rending with guilt over something for which recompense cannot be made. Which wouldn't be new for me. But I do think that while Europe may not "need to act further" (I take your point), I do think that Europe's view of the situation should be far more empathetic to all sides of the story, and where warranted and welcomed, supportive actions/policies should be enacted.

Posted by Travis on 2006-07-25 09:53:13 +0000

this gals from your neck of the woods as well

bad link there, T.

Posted by Miriam on 2006-07-25 13:57:16 +0000

As an American Jew, currently raising money from American Jews, I can honestly say that you don't understand where our money is going. I just sent $150 to get children out of Northern Israel (to summer camps), help feed and give medical attention to the elderly, and provide air conditioning to folks stuck in their bomb shelters with no other comforts and with nothing to do but wait out the end of this mess. The agency I work for doesn't fund the Israeli governent, but social services.

Posted by pamsterdam on 2006-07-26 09:23:25 +0000

Mir, I totally respect & support your work, I really do. And also - you're hot. x

Posted by Travis on 2006-07-26 12:29:10 +0000

its a bit wonky but it appears to link through ok, I will try that again

the shonky link above

here is some more

morality

more morality

an opposing view

Posted by G lib on 2006-07-26 13:26:04 +0000

Honestly, I believe that your heart, and the heart of the people that work in your organization are completely in the right place. However, after working in philanthropy for 5 years, I don't trust charitable giving to be entirely altruistic. We've had this conversation on rideside a bunch of times. From "The Israel Lobbby" in the London Review of Books In May 2003, the pro-Israel Committee for Accurate Middle East Reporting in America (CAMERA) organised demonstrations outside National Public Radio stations in 33 cities; it also tried to persuade contributors to withhold support from NPR until its Middle East coverage becomes more sympathetic to Israel. Boston’s NPR station, WBUR, reportedly lost more than $1 million in contributions as a result of these efforts. Further pressure on NPR has come from Israel’s friends in Congress, who have asked for an internal audit of its Middle East coverage as well as more oversight. The article is much better than this quote, pretty even-handed and sourced, although i don't agree with some of it.

Posted by G lib on 2006-07-26 13:26:31 +0000

And, you are HOTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT.

Posted by pamsterdam on 2006-07-27 04:34:11 +0000

Speaking of which, I love my friend Amy.

Posted by Travis on 2006-07-27 07:43:45 +0000

I love your friend Amy too, her and the twins that is...

Posted by pamsterdam on 2006-07-27 12:15:29 +0000

Yes, she also has a nice rack. But possibly not as opulently presented as the young lady pictured...

Posted by Travis on 2006-07-27 15:32:53 +0000

ahh, i thought that was her....

Posted by pamsterdam on 2006-07-28 05:45:33 +0000

Sorry, Travis - she's the blog author.

Posted by Miriam on 2006-07-28 23:50:33 +0000

LOVE the creative peace-keeping!

Posted by Miriam on 2006-07-28 23:51:30 +0000

Guess all that lobbying worked. And now there's more balance to that media.

Posted by G lib on 2006-07-31 13:17:09 +0000

WBUR?

Posted by Miriam on 2006-08-04 16:28:52 +0000

Been at a conference in Philly last week (for Jewish community fundraisers, of which I am currently one), and due to a hostage-esque travel experience, I've been out of the office all week, sick as a dog. So, here is something interesting. Been listening to a lot of BBC lately, which seems to have a fairly fair grasp on the situation, and at least moderately balanced. Heard at my conference last week from a dude who used to work at the Jerusalem Post (where I wanted to work for a long time), who put a lot of things into perspective for me. Also attended an Israel solidarity rally my second day in Philly; there were about a dozen dirty hippie protestors who were entirely out of place...and kept trying to seem subversive while the Philly police continually followed them around the plaza; it was kind of funny. I kept wondering if I looked that dumb when I was protesting for Burma in college...decidedly not, since I wasn't a hippie.

Posted by tgl on 2006-08-04 18:10:35 +0000

Just read something on the Jerusalem Post website about how the BBC (or at least European Media) is biased. Maybe I can find it... Hizbollah out of Lebanon! Israel out of Lebanon! There was also a great "letter from tel aviv" somewhere about the current crisis.

Posted by tgl on 2006-08-04 18:11:15 +0000

Oh yeah.

Posted by tgl on 2006-08-04 18:22:24 +0000

Not news, but opinion.

Posted by Miriam on 2006-08-04 18:29:37 +0000

I just got word that the kids I worked with here are being bombed now; one doesn't have a shelter for her family. Every few days, a coworker's cousin sends an email about life in Haifa right now. Certainly not a vibrant city right now. Apparently there are mostly rockets hitting in the daytime, since it would be easier for the Israeli's to find where they're coming from at night. War subsidies are going to be given to businesses in Haifa by the Israeli government now due to the total collapse in business activities for the past month. Life is not normal in Lebanon or Israel right now. I hope the fighting ends soon. Shabbat Shalom, y'all!

Posted by Miriam on 2006-08-09 13:44:48 +0000

Trav, sorry it took so long to put this up. It's what I see every morning in my inbox. Hoping the fighting ends in peace.

Posted by tgl on 2006-08-17 19:54:10 +0000

Anyone happy the ceasefire is holding? What did Israel, Lebanon and the US achieve by waiting so long? Yglesias thinks, not much.

Posted by Miriam on 2006-08-18 19:18:09 +0000

I'm happy. Still having to raise a lot of money for rebuilding and social services.