Posted by ConorClockwise on 2007-01-22 18:00:28 +0000
You don't dig Crispin?
Posted by pamsterdam on 2007-01-22 18:18:53 +0000
I'd really appreciate it if someone could explain to me the rationale behind both Mr Glover's and that guy from Faith No More's interest in (fixation on?) the disabled. Most of y'all know the reason for my interest, and I guess I have a hard time believing that the way in which they express their interest isn't exploitative. I'd love to hear some evidence to the contrary.
Posted by MF DU on 2007-01-22 20:34:19 +0000
I was a personal liason to Crispin for a performance he did @ UNH in 1994.
Lets just say that he had a lot of demands.
I 'spose this is an observation of my direct relationship with him over the course of a specific weekend, and not an observation / judgment of his critical output (some of which is highly enjoyable - River's Edge, Back To The Future, his spoken word Clown Clown Clown thing, etc..)
As far as Pamsterdam's FNM comments are concerned - Mike Patton, or Chuck Moseley? did he make fun of handicapped people? When? What Work?
Posted by MF DU on 2007-01-22 20:50:39 +0000
This is a big interest of mine, too.
Do people dig Wesley Willis, the Kids Of Whidney High and Daniel Johnston (just 3 examples off the top of my head) or do they just think they are funny because they are different?
I think anyone using music as a creative and expressive output should be applauded. Of course I am going to feel iffy and maybe even conflicted sometimes about whether I am enjoying Rock n Roll Mcdonald's for the right reasons, but what else would have brought Wesley more enjoyment and sense of purpose than making watercolor city drawings and casio recordings?
If you get some level of enjoyment out of a recording, isn't that "like" the most important thing, or should I have to qualify and analyze everything I experience to determine if liking it is legit or not?
Ultimately ,to me at least, it doesn't matter one iota whether critics or other rock stars or hipsters latch on to these guys if it allows them to do what they would have done without the media attention anyway, just with more tools or resources to do what they love.
It is lame if there are people that are laughing "at" him, but what should people do in response to those people? Stay home and not create because it doesn't adhere to some unspoken standard, quality, or aesthetic? IMHO: Fuck No.
Posted by pamsterdam on 2007-01-23 04:36:20 +0000
Sorry, I honestly forgot his name. The way I heard it, Mike Patton was instrumental in getting Kids Of Whidney High recorded.
Posted by pamsterdam on 2007-01-23 04:53:31 +0000
Oh, totally.
But I guess I'm less concerned with how the public interpret these works than I am with in what spirit the works were created. Wesley Willis had a fantastic time performing and making art. Sure, some people - maybe most people - like his music & drawings because they think he's "a freak". But the same can be said of a lot of people who appear - at least on the surface - to fit the description "normal" better than Wesley. Some of those people choose "freak" as their costume, which brings up the question of whether or not that is exploitative (or celebratory) of people who cannot help but not fit in.
I read an interview with Mr Glover yesterday in which he said that he wanted to show (in What Is It?) that people with disabilities are just the same as anybody, the same needs, foibles, etc. Kind of a reaction against the sainthood bestowed on the disabled in most Hollywood fare. OK, all Hollywood fare. So I get that. But I'd like to know what instigated his interest. I suspect it's his late friend & co-writer of What Is It?, who had CP, but I'm always looking for fellow family members, as I like to support their work. But I guess my thinking that Glover might have a relative with a disability is like the GLBT Club at UNH telling me that I must be at least bi, since no straight people genuinely support gay rights.
BTW, Neil Young has two kids with CP, that's why he bought Lionel Trains, so he could design a set they could control using head movements.
I was all psyched to hear that Billy Corgan has a brother with a disability, until I read an interview with him (BC) in which he said, "It's not like he's a retard, or anything." Well, Billy... then I guess that's OK, isn't it? Thank God you're not related to a retard. Let's just say I joined the Billy Corgan's An Asshole Club late in the game.
Posted by tgl on 2007-01-23 12:42:45 +0000
On the train this morning, I read about half of an Alice Munro short story in the Feb. 2007 issue of Harper's Magazine. Depending on how it ends, it may or may not be related to this thread. Here's a thought that is sort of diametrical with Glover's assertion in What Is It?: Some communities value non-conformity and what is more nonconformist than a person whose abilities are not of the norm?
It doesn't look like it's available online (yet?), January's issue had a couple great articles and this issue is also a standout. I need to post a media guide for the past week.
Posted by MF DU on 2007-01-23 13:30:28 +0000
The BCAA club is always welcoming new members.
BTW, not just anyone can write songs for Courtney Love. Asshole.
Posted by MF DU on 2007-01-23 13:39:28 +0000
[lorbering]
What about FNM, pamsterdam, where do they fit into all of this?
as far as the GLBT is concerned, to me at least, it doesn't sound very inclusive for them to discount a group just because they aren't the same as them.
Posted by pamsterdam on 2007-01-23 13:49:54 +0000
Oops, sorry - my response is here
It was pretty funny, the GLBT thing:
"So, you don't think being gay is bad, or wrong?"
"Nope."
"And you don't feel threatened by lesbians?"
"No."
"Even if they hit on you?"
"Hey, I take compliments wherever I can get 'em."
"You don't think, 'what a waste!' when a famous hot guy comes out?"
"Never."
"... You're totally gay."
Posted by pamsterdam on 2007-01-23 14:04:23 +0000
"Some communities value non-conformity and what is more nonconformist than a person whose abilities are not of the norm?"
I tried to think out some logical response to that, but started chasing my tail... Let's see if I can ferret something out of it...
I mean, anyone who doesn't fit in - by virtue of their disability/appearance/personality - has no choice but to be non-conformist (although some people can alter themselves in order to - at least try to - fit in: pretend to be cool, or have cosmetic surgery, or go on a diet, or lift weights). But is non-conformity in itself valued, or is it the apparent conscious choice to be non-conformist which is valued by these groups of people? And surely each non-conformist population has its own strict set of guidelines as to what is and is not acceptable in their group, right? All of them at least conform to the norms of their own group, as far as I can see. Or are you thinking of a different kind of non-conformist?
There are people who refuse to conform to their own group's conformism (transgendered people who decide not to pursue gender reassignment, or people who use wheelchairs and are told they could have an operation to walk again but choose not to - to name two examples I've witnessed), but they are in the minority and are not necessarily accepted even by their "own" group.
Am I chasing my tail?
Posted by MF DU on 2007-01-23 14:26:34 +0000
I dont think KOWH was a mean spirited thing, though. Those guys are out there making music because they like to do that. If Patton makes fun of them that sucks, but I dont necesarilly think thats his fault.
Posted by MF DU on 2007-01-23 14:28:44 +0000
um - no - GLBT just wants you to be gay to further their political cause.
Posted by pamsterdam on 2007-01-23 14:30:29 +0000
Actually, I think the girl I was talking to wanted to further her booty-call cause.
Posted by pamsterdam on 2007-01-23 14:32:57 +0000
If MP did it because he thought it was cool, I am totally down with that. There's an awesome group here called the Josti Band, it's all people with mental retardation, many with Down's Syndrome, and they're a f*cking orchestra. They play everything from the triangle to steel drums to tubas to clarinets, and they've learned to read music using a color-coding system. They're f*cking brilliant, and they have such a great time playing.
Posted by tgl on 2007-01-23 14:37:35 +0000
I was prompted by an observation in the story that children are notorious conformists (The Wife has a disturbing story of 2nd graders teasing based on shoe brands). My original post was made thinking of those people who do not have a choice. Certainly we can choose to conform/nonconform to a communities standards. We can choose the community we intend to disrupt!
I think there is a fascination with lack of choice. Since I know of no other mentally retarded performers I'll use Wesley Willis (Maybe "Corky" from that early '90s TV show whose name eludes me? Maybe Henry Darger?) Could Willis have been any other type of musician, any other type of artist? He choose music, but how much of what he did is a reflection of choice and how much a reflection of his condition?
I've been seeing more reports on the illusion of free choice. Whether we choose to conform may not be a matter of choice. Maybe the fascination with disabled people is that it's clearer to see what lack of choice looks like.
Posted by MF DU on 2007-01-23 14:42:24 +0000
thats hilarious. lol
Posted by ConorClockwise on 2007-01-23 14:45:13 +0000
Being a personal assistant to demanding people never shines a good light on them.
I find Glover's work to be absolutely original, almost Malkovich-ian, distinctly not exploitive.
Posted by pamsterdam on 2007-01-23 15:03:26 +0000
Very interesting. Certainly, inborn personality is consistent regardless of external packaging, IMHO. But we are all affected by the way that other people treat us, the expectations that others have of us (or don't have of us), and the way in which (and the extent to which) we are able to process that external information informs our personalities and affects the way in which we relate to the world. I would agree that people with disabilities have - to varying degrees - a lack of choice in terms of conformity. But I do wonder what thoughts/emotions are stirred up by observing that lack of choice - superiority? jealousy? admiration? scientific interest? What is the fascination with lack of choice? As a socially awkward and aesthetically ungifted kid, I felt that I had no choice in conformity. I did not wear that non-conformity like a badge of honor, but like my hand, my foot, my nose, like any other part of who I was. I observed that I did not fit in but I did not understand why. I didn't see myself the way that others did, and consequently didn't comprehend their reactions to me. Didn't most people feel that way growing up? Don't we all know that feeling?
Chris "Corky" Burke, by the way, is in a band now. And thanks for the Darger link, I hadn't heard of him before.
Posted by Miriam on 2007-01-23 17:30:51 +0000
LOOOOOOOOOOOOOVE Darger! I have a book of his work. I think he was an extra-crazy genius.