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Posted by Epoisses on 2007-02-06 19:11:39 +0000

Connor, you were right about "Hills Like White Elephants." Still pretty tight, though.

Posted by ConorClockwise on 2007-02-06 19:19:08 +0000

Thoroughly disappointed with DFW, and perhaps even the New Yorker. Total BS.

Posted by MF DU on 2007-02-06 19:25:47 +0000

Total BS in that it is similar to Hemingway?

Posted by ConorClockwise on 2007-02-06 19:34:03 +0000

"Rip off" is the term I would use.

Posted by MF DU on 2007-02-06 20:09:34 +0000

So Oliver Stone shouldn't have made World Trade Center because United 93 had already come out?

Posted by mahatma chani on 2007-02-06 20:28:38 +0000

I know there's no new ideas left, but this is fucking shameless.

Posted by Epoisses on 2007-02-07 05:26:36 +0000

Commentary.

Posted by ConorClockwise on 2007-02-07 05:45:43 +0000

What the fuck are you talking about? Oliver Stone didn't rip off United 93.

Posted by ConorClockwise on 2007-02-07 06:07:07 +0000

Agreed, MC. I even looked at the "Contributors Page" to see if they mentioned Hemingway. No such luck.

Posted by Epoisses on 2007-02-07 06:08:14 +0000

Just because the abortion thread runs through both stories doesn't mean that Wallace ripped off Hemingway, just like how 'WTC' and 'United 93' are about the same event but aren't stealing from each other.

Posted by ConorClockwise on 2007-02-07 06:21:06 +0000

Pah-lease. DFW knew exactly what he was doing. Same topic, same structure, same context, same voice, it's even the same format, except there's less dialogue and more introspection. If DFW had said this is a reworking of Hemingway or his alternate version, I'd take it. Without citing Ernest, what he has done is bordering on criminal, and definitely sleazy. Lastly the "United 93" and "WTC" comparison to this holds no water. For starters there are contemporaries.

Posted by Epoisses on 2007-02-07 06:32:52 +0000

-Same topic. In 'Hills,' a couple is talking back and forth about the procedure. They're drinking, though, so we can kinda infer their decision is already made despite the dialogue. In 'Good People,' the abortion is a springboard to the protagonist's faith more than anything. -Same structure. Totally incorrect. Hemingway uses pretty much all dialogue; Wallace uses a bunch of big paragraphs with wordy prose. -Same context. One story has characters sitting by a river; another has them talking in a cafe and finds most of the action going on in the protagonist's head. -Same voice. What? Hemmingway and Wallace have similar voices in their completely disparate prose styles? No. -Same format? See above. There's no reason for Wallace to come out and say that he's referencing Hemingway because it's a good bet that everyone who has read the New Yorker already knows the reference -- that's what an allusion is. Do you seriously think that Wallace is trying to put one over on us? Dissing the story because he's referring to an earlier work is a completely shallow, knee-jerk reaction. Everyone knows it's referring to Hemingway. The question becomes why he's doing it.

Posted by ConorClockwise on 2007-02-07 09:02:32 +0000

I'm nothing, if not shallow and knee-jerk.

Posted by MF DU on 2007-02-07 13:37:47 +0000

thanks Epoisses. Get off that mighty high steed, Conor.

Posted by MF DU on 2007-02-07 13:47:00 +0000

The question becomes why he's doing it. This was more or less my first reaction, too - I'm guessing using a familiar story line and attempting to tell the story with a few differnet literary techniques was something DFW saw as a challenge to embrace. Same structure. Totally incorrect. Hemingway uses pretty much all dialogue; Wallace uses a bunch of big paragraphs with wordy prose. I could be talking out of my ass here, but DFW's also has to do almost specifically with the internal thought process of the male individual of the couple. I would have to read Hemingway's, again, but as Eye Posse said, isn't Hemingway's centered in a lot of dialogue? What made it interesting to me was that the male of the couple's thought process was headed in one specific direction for almost the entire story and then, completely changes in the last few lines.

Posted by ConorClockwise on 2007-02-07 18:15:49 +0000

Only if you take your tiara off.

Posted by MF DU on 2007-02-07 18:17:19 +0000

Must be all the dress up play I do with Maddie Nigs...

Posted by Epoisses on 2007-02-07 18:23:10 +0000

Posted by MF DU on 2007-02-07 18:23:56 +0000

closer to the truth than you could ever imagine - chortle inducing!

Posted by tgl on 2007-02-07 19:51:53 +0000

This is art. No wait, it's "Art". No... "Punk Art". Kudos to Wallace for selling the New Yorker some warmed-over Hemmingway. Way to stick it to the man!

Posted by Epoisses on 2007-02-07 20:09:30 +0000

Posted by MF DU on 2007-02-07 20:09:58 +0000

I know there's no new ideas left, but this is fucking shameless.

Posted by mahatma chani on 2007-02-07 20:12:18 +0000

About the only way I'd believe this guy was if he was say polishing a cocked and loaded sawed-off shotgun aimed at his head and the hang with the rag accidentally pulled the trigger.

Posted by MF DU on 2007-02-07 20:14:39 +0000

Posted by pamsterdam on 2007-02-07 20:16:54 +0000

Trotting out this chestnut again...

Posted by Epoisses on 2007-02-08 05:33:10 +0000

The rumor was that Hemingway offed himself because he used his complete, limited supply of ejaculations.

Posted by ConorClockwise on 2007-02-08 06:15:27 +0000

It did run in the family...

Posted by tgl on 2007-03-06 00:40:11 +0000

I've been gushing about Lethem's essay in Harper's a few (two?) issues ago. He was in the Glob on Sunday, Q&A Lethem. Anyone read Fortress of Solitude?

Posted by MF DU on 2007-03-06 00:49:25 +0000

I loved that J. Lethem piece in the 'Ideas' section and I also thought about this particular thread as well as a conversation we had @ Johnny D's about plaigarism after reading the Glob's Q and A this weekend. Yes - I did read Fortress of Solitude. I was a Lethem fan before I read it, but that is definitely his best so far IMHO. The detail of the pop / music cultural landscape combined with the NYC ambience of the late 70's and 80's really were top notch. Add a crazy (not to mention unexpected) super hero angle, and you've got yrself one crazy book. p.s the Sunday Glob also had a big piece on Ornette Coleman in the Arts section. Check out that crazy colored silk suit!

Posted by Epoisses on 2007-03-06 00:45:41 +0000

Fortress of Solitude was one of the five best books I've read in the past ten years.

Posted by mahatma chani on 2007-03-07 15:20:23 +0000

Over/under that I could pull off that jacket?

Posted by MF DU on 2007-03-07 16:13:50 +0000

[totally earnest -no sarcasm]I TOTALLY think you should start wearing colorful silk suits.[/totally earnest -no sarcasm]

Posted by tgl on 2007-03-07 16:20:56 +0000

If "one" means highly unlikely that you could pull that off, than one. Moog hat, t-shirt, zippered sweat, jeans, white tennies, that's Lee Bronson. What five items describes me?

Posted by MF DU on 2007-03-07 16:24:21 +0000

Subaru should be one item. I want to hear what other folks say about the other Four. Feel free to chime in on the DÜ as well...

Posted by tgl on 2007-03-07 16:32:40 +0000

Well, I don't wear the Subaru. I guess I was looking for clothing aesthetic. But I'll take it. I did just buy a new one.

Posted by MF DU on 2007-03-07 16:35:11 +0000

Good point - Glasses, then. Although: glasses aren't as fun as the Subaru, no matter how incorrect the Subaru reference may be.

Posted by MF DU on 2007-03-07 16:43:23 +0000

Posted by mahatma chani on 2007-03-07 16:57:50 +0000

Black on both sides, bitch!

Posted by tgl on 2007-03-07 17:10:53 +0000

Oh my.

Posted by G lib on 2007-03-07 17:31:10 +0000

This t-shirt.

Posted by tgl on 2007-03-07 17:37:45 +0000

I'd like to apologize for not living up to it that evening.

Posted by MF DU on 2007-03-07 17:39:36 +0000

the other 4?

Posted by Epoisses on 2007-03-07 18:01:54 +0000

Gotta think about it.