WWW.RIDESIDE.NET

Posted by tgl on 2007-06-08 19:04:18 +0000

Man, the lurkers are coming out of the woodwork. First PT, now B-to-the-E, who could be next? To answer your questions: 1) No. 2) Yes.

Posted by pamsterdam on 2007-06-09 02:41:31 +0000

Mrs is useful to me for three reasons. One is that non-native English speakers recognise it as an English term of respect for women. They find Ms and Miss equally confusing. Yes, it is the 21st century. No, Europeans still don't care about the intricacies of our language, even if they consider themselves fluent. I can't really blame them. And the second reason it's useful to me is that it makes me giggle (it's kind of funny). Finally, I like Mrs because it reminds me of my husband. Which may sound lame, but it's kind of nice, in the middle of a tough work day, to get an e-mail which starts "Dear Mrs _______" (typical for non-native English speakers who haven't met me in person). I don't feel as if it takes anything away from my autonomy, or that it indicates that I'm subservient to anyone. Rather than the term Mrs being obsolete in 2007, I think it just means something entirely different than it did in 1957. It's kind of a shame that men don't have an equivalent. And kind of a shame that the meaning is lost on my European counterparts. Mrs, to me, means that I've found someone I want to share my life with and maybe have children with; that I have a supportive partner at home who shares my successes and disappointments with me. But hey, I've only been married for 3 years. I'm sure the honeymoon will be over soon and I'll start demanding that everyone call me Ms.

Posted by burkee on 2007-06-09 11:05:05 +0000

Pamsterdam, I like your take. I too am still in the honeymoon stage, and rocking the new name with all of its positive associations. While using formal titles in identifying myself or addressing others will never be my bag, it's fun being called one, another, or even two last names and the full range of mrs/ms/miss at work.

Posted by pamsterdam on 2007-06-09 11:48:47 +0000

Burkee, a warm - albeit belated - "welcome to rideside" to you. I should've started with that.

Posted by Rory_Stark on 2007-06-09 15:24:48 +0000

Don't call it a come back, Burkee has been here for years.

Posted by ConorClockwise on 2007-06-09 17:39:11 +0000

"It's kind of a shame that men don't have an equivalent." Yes they do - Master : Miss :: Mister : Misses. 'Master' was never popular, and became even less so after the whole slavery thing.

Posted by pamsterdam on 2007-06-09 18:14:06 +0000

Yes, but Master to Mister is purely an age thing. Miss to Mrs is more complex. As I said, "Mrs, to me, means that I've found someone I want to share my life with and maybe have children with; that I have a supportive partner at home who shares my successes and disappointments with me." Mr means... you're over 18. Big whoop.

Posted by tgl on 2007-06-10 21:23:01 +0000

If you don't post in 6 months, you're, like, a board virgin again.

Posted by ConorClockwise on 2007-06-11 01:05:14 +0000

There it is: "board again virgin".

Posted by G lib on 2007-06-11 09:04:42 +0000

Only my family send me "Mrs." things, which means either they're making a joke at my expense or are really old. Maybe if you don't change your name, people assume you want to be a Ms., and if you do, people aren't sure? But who am I to even guess about these things? I live in a bubble of liberalism. I never even considered changing my name, it would be difficult to get more feminist jobs than my last two, my niece has my sister's last name, I wasn't allowed to own Barbies(tm) as a kid. (thanks for de-lurking, Burkee--it's fun to have you around)

Posted by G lib on 2007-06-11 09:04:54 +0000

I like this.

Posted by pamsterdam on 2007-06-11 09:16:34 +0000

Ooh, good, this is getting juicy. OK, I have never considered not changing my name. I always knew I wanted to take my husband's name if I got married. It's an emotional decision rather than an intellectual one, for me. And I'm a socialist (which is pretty liberal). And I played with Barbie and Ken (by "played with" please read "made Ken lay on top of Barbie while making kissy noises"). And I consider myself a feminist. So am I a "bad" feminist? I honestly don't mean this question as confrontational - I'm curious about your opinion(s), but whatever your opinions may be, I'll still consider myself a feminist and you my friend(s). I suppose a better term for what I am is a humanist - I believe in women's rights, men's rights, gay rights, civil rights, etc etc. But as a woman, it's important to me to think of myself as a feminist. And I'm curious to know if others might consider me to be a hypocrite or a compromiser. Honest.

Posted by tendiamonds on 2007-06-11 10:12:19 +0000

For me, it was and is important for my wife and my children to have the same name as I have. This is our family's name. I don't care what that name is, mind you. I tried really hard for it to be something other than my father's name, but making up a new name was too hokey for us, she wasn't very attached to either her birth name or adoptive name, and she flat our rejected my personal favorite, her mother's maiden name, just because it was the best Jewish name of the lot. How could you argue with Abramson! (kids probably wouldn't have A names, though) I've seen the burden that friends have had when they go to the doctor, or hospital or daycare or whatever, and have to explain that, indeed, this child with a different name is theirs. If the parents have different names, only one can share with the children, and that's just sad. Feminism, in this case, is really stupid, because it's for the kids. The fucking kids, ladies!

Posted by pamsterdam on 2007-06-11 10:33:44 +0000

Yes, and I tried thinking about keeping my maiden name. The problems 10D raised did come up in my thoughts, but moreover... My maiden name is my father's name! And my mother's maiden name is her father's name! And my mother's mother's mother's mother's name is her father's name! So I don't really see the point, unless you're Icelandic and have surnames like: Margaretsdottir. Which would be pretty awesome. Any female child of mine would be Pamelasdottir and any son would be Edwardsson. Wow. Oops, my "bad" feminist stripes are showing!

Posted by tommy on 2007-06-11 10:32:38 +0000

From a (former) kid's perspective: I grew up as a 'Walsh' when my parents (mom and step-dad) had the name 'Musik'. My biological father's last name is 'Rosinke'. My grandparents (mom's mom and mom's step-dad) were called 'McGuiness'. You have to go back to great-grandparents to find the last 'Walsh' that I am descended from. But, I didn't feel like I was lacking anything because all of our names were different. I felt bad for the hyphen-kids with the superlong last names. I eventually ended up working with someone with the last name 'Schleifer-Schneggenburger'. Imagine if she marries a 'MacDonald-Patterson' and has kids! When M and I get married, she's keeping her last name (because it's cooler than mine, and it's hers), and I'm keeping mine (because I'm too lazy to change it... otherwise I'd have already changed my legal first name to Tommy). We tried and failed to come up with a fabricated new last name that we'd share. If we have a kid, its name will be "Horrifying Mistake".

Posted by tendiamonds on 2007-06-11 10:40:59 +0000

If you take her name, you can change your first name, too, free of charge.

Posted by Propagandatour on 2007-06-11 10:45:18 +0000

On Mrs., why should married ladies get a special title? In some cases, they have made really poor marriage choices, but are still knighted "Mrs." just the same. Perhaps only happily married woman who make a good marriage choice should get to parade around their "Mrs." distinctions. It's like women who don't make this marriage decision are left behind (aka, remain the semi-shameful "Ms."). They remain (insert far-away narration voice) embryos that grow and grow, but will never fully emerge with fully formed wings. At the same time, Ms. is not nearly as matronly as Mrs., which is a tad frompy, right? What I HATE is being called "Ma'me." I had no idea, as a younger person, how much this term would eventually bother me. I much prefer "Madame," a distinction not reserved for 30+. And, "Madame" is funny. You men don't know how easy you have it--to not have to worry about such serious problems. As an aside--TGL, I haven't been "lurking" the Rideside for years, as you say. (At least not much.)

Posted by Propagandatour on 2007-06-11 10:48:32 +0000

Sorry to change go back to the previous subject folks. While I was composing, you clearly moved on.

Posted by pamsterdam on 2007-06-11 10:55:23 +0000

I'm not sure how "Ms" is shameful... This is where I realise that I've stepped heavy-footed into the dog-poo of potentially making others think I view an aspect of their lives negatively because I've said something positive about something that makes me different from them. I'm a Leo, it comes with the territory. And I really don't mean to offend or patronise. Although I am a tad matronly in the hip area, anyway... All I meant is that the choice I made makes me feel fuzzy and happy. And I totally understand why other people might not want to make the same choice. Ma'am is hideous. It should be reserved for people we hate.

Posted by tendiamonds on 2007-06-11 11:08:18 +0000

It wouldn't be a problem if you weren't in Nashua.

Posted by G lib on 2007-06-11 11:36:11 +0000

One small comment on The fucking kids, ladies!: My niece has my sister's name, my nephew has his father's name. They followed Virtue's family's naming practice. It's not a perfect solution, but it works for them. I'd bet multiple-named families are getting toward the norm rather than the exception.

Posted by mahatma chani on 2007-06-11 11:49:00 +0000

You shall be Jason Abramson from here on in to me.

Posted by G lib on 2007-06-11 11:54:07 +0000

others might consider me to be a hypocrite or a compromiser No way. My opinion on the naming matter: I made a choice, you made a different choice, but most importantly we both had the choice. (except in Germany, where you have to choose all names from a special government-issued book. Technically, my sister's naming technique is illegal) I simultaneously love and hate the idea of the opt-out revolution.. But that the choice is available is most important.

Posted by Miriam on 2007-06-11 12:14:17 +0000

POTD

Posted by pamsterdam on 2007-06-11 12:24:02 +0000

All I read was the first page and I'm kind of horrified. But you're right - the important thing is that they have a choice. On a side note, Sweden & Switzerland are 2 countries I know of with lists of "suitable" (i.e. "legal") baby names. Illegal names are, well, illegal. One major problem? Sweden, at least, now has a sizable Muslim population. Who are... not allowed to name their children many traditional Muslim names as they aren't "yet" on the list. Right. As for legal surnames, in Holland I will always be known by my maiden name. They don't recognise my married name as legal, although I was able to use it on my bank account, etc as it's on my new passport as my US-recognised legal name. But the government (and society) don't recognise it. My healthcare paperwork compromises by hyphenating my name, but with my married name first and my maiden name last. Kids get the papa's name, provided his name's on the birth certificate.

Posted by Miriam on 2007-06-11 12:24:20 +0000

I love being called Ma'am. And call lots of women Ma'am. For me, it's a term of politeness. Has nothing to do with age.

Posted by pamsterdam on 2007-06-11 12:24:57 +0000

Ahhh, the Mason-Dixon line. :o)

Posted by Miriam on 2007-06-11 12:27:31 +0000

And although most of you who know me can't tell...I also attended finishing classes. I know the proper way to get into and out of a car while wearing a skirt.

Posted by tommy on 2007-06-11 12:28:17 +0000

I use "Ma'am" the same way I use "Sir"... when I want to get a random stranger's attention, but I'm not looking to have a real conversation with them. e.g. "Ma'am... you just dropped your wallet on the ground"

Posted by Epoisses on 2007-06-11 13:06:34 +0000

Just think of the fun: Lowysdottir by Das Grossencanalen drinking Lowenbrau!

Posted by tendiamonds on 2007-06-11 13:23:43 +0000

That's "Mrs. Jason Fucking Abramson" to you, missy.

Posted by Propagandatour on 2007-06-11 13:28:11 +0000

I think Mrs. is perfectly great for those who like it. It's a part of our society. It just brings up a host of other musings for me--most of which are not very serious. But this is entirely serious: To me, Ma'am sounds like a euphemism for "b--ch" in any shade of northern or southern accent.

Posted by pamsterdam on 2007-06-11 14:40:54 +0000

...an all-too rare talent, it seems.

Posted by pamsterdam on 2007-06-11 14:45:54 +0000

Who gave Epoisses the brown acid?

Posted by Miriam on 2007-06-11 14:51:16 +0000

Just depends on the context or tone of voice in which it's aired. I've used it in a condescending way before, but usually when I'm sassing my mama.

Posted by tommy on 2007-06-11 14:54:16 +0000

This sausage disagrees.

Posted by pamsterdam on 2007-06-11 14:56:21 +0000

"Sassing my mama" = A+

Posted by tgl on 2007-06-11 15:10:57 +0000

POTD, sir.

Posted by Epoisses on 2007-06-11 15:39:42 +0000

It's a bummer, man.

Posted by Epoisses on 2007-06-11 15:40:03 +0000

A+.

Posted by Propagandatour on 2007-06-11 15:41:42 +0000

You've called your mother "Ma'am?" Is that a Southern thing?

Posted by virtue on 2007-06-11 15:51:41 +0000

I am totally on the same page, tommy. Although maybe it's just all the time I spent in NOLA and Austin. Of all the outside of 128 culture shocks, hearing a heterosexual man call another heterosexual man baby really whacked my brain about in my skull. Of course, as alluded to by GLib, I come from from pretty hard core liberal feminist stock, so hearing any body called baby or sugar was kind of a trip (as a teenager I once got a lecture for referring to another girl as a chick).

Posted by virtue on 2007-06-11 17:03:36 +0000

I had written several screens worth of general response to burkee's initial comment and the responses, but then my computer crashed, and rather than rewrite it, I feel that my thoughts on the matter can be summed up as follows: 'Tis but thy name that is my enemy; Thou art thyself, though not a Montague. What's Montague? it is nor hand, nor foot, Nor arm, nor face, nor any other part Belonging to a man. O, be some other name! What's in a name? that which we call a rose By any other name would smell as sweet; So Romeo would, were he not Romeo call'd, Retain that dear perfection which he owes Without that title. Romeo, doff thy name, And for that name which is no part of thee Take all myself. From personal experience, the second paragraph of 10D's post is bullshit. And I experienced this when people were even less used to the idea of multiple last names than they are now (my parents filed a class action suit with several other families in order for me to have my mom's last name). Yes people get confused, but people get confused about far more basic things that cause just as much hassle. I certainly don't feel less connected to my sister or to my dad or to his family because we don't have the same last name. In fact, I don't give this subject all that much thought except when it comes up in conversations like this. The same goes for titles--I recently sent burkee an invitation addressed to Mr. and Mrs. Conor Clockwise, because she had taken his last name, and that is how it's done in the most recent set of generally accepted rules. I don't want to agonize over what other people were thinking about when they got married and what it means to them. I once asked my mother if it bothered her when people sent mail addressed to Mr. and Mrs. Blankety Blank. She said that she knew who she was, she knew what they meant, and it was generally a pretty good way to screen out telemarketers. Works for me.

Posted by Miriam on 2007-06-11 17:53:46 +0000

I say yes, Ma'am to my mom all the time. Out of respect. Just like I say yes, sir to my dad all the time. Or to my boss, or my supervisor, or anyone! Did it in Boston, too...and was yelled at by someone on the phone for about 10 minutes because I said: Ma'am, I understand that you're upset... Note: she was at least 65 years old and looked about 85 and acted about 3. That's when I started referring her calls to other people.

Posted by burkee on 2007-06-11 20:23:48 +0000

After reading all of your posts, I am feeling an expansive love of names. We can each keep our given name, or get a legal change, for any number of reasons. It's cooler than the last day of school. Inversely, I am beginning to loath all titles. Not in the sense that I mind too much how my mail is addressed, getting personal mail is a rare and happy occasion: thanks, virtue! Rather, in the sense that titles (especially when used by strangers) assume a lot about a person. By 'a lot', I mean sex organs and gender identity. In the case of junk mail, the title could be the result of some little box checked F or M. What business does the credit card company have inquiring about the junk in your pants? Hell, I am for canning gender and marital associations altogether, and using simply the letter M. as the universal title of respect. If all titles are the same, there is no need for a title at all. There is no need for titles.

Posted by jbcardinale on 2007-06-11 21:11:28 +0000

Tonight at my son Jerome's graduation from Boston Latin School departing headmaster, Cornelia Kelley, complimented Honorable Mayor Tom Menino for citing her as BLS's first female headmaster unlike George W. Bush, who called her headmistress!

Posted by pamsterdam on 2007-06-12 01:12:23 +0000

Burkee, that is by far the most eloquent post I've read in ages. It sounds like the first paragraph of a beautiful book. No offense meant to any other ridesiders.

Posted by MF DU on 2007-06-12 08:57:51 +0000

people are really heated on this. Maybe we should: -all start calling each other unpronouncable symbols a la Prince or TAFKAP -start referring to one another as clicks / clacks a la The Gods Are Crazy just a thought...

Posted by tendiamonds on 2007-06-12 09:06:52 +0000

Ask your parents how often dealing with bureaucracy was more difficult than it needed to be because of their decision. You were probably inconvenienced by it a lot less than they were.

Posted by G lib on 2007-06-12 10:40:56 +0000

I can tell you how often I am inconvenienced by my parents' naming decision-- about 17 times a week. However, I also get complimented on it about 17 times per week. Having my name has influenced my life in a lot of ways, most of them positive. I don't want to speak for Virtue's parents, but I think that if I had fought the good fight to give Virtue her name, I would feel proud every time I was inconvenienced by having to explain why my children have two different names. In fact, I am proud of what Virtue's parents did, and I'm not even their kid. Your son has a pretty unusual name-- my guess is that he'll grow up simultaneously loving and hating it (like me,) and having to explain it to people just like Virtue's parents. [no snark here-- just my 2 cents] And on a side note, how many people are inconvenienced by being called John Smith or Jessica Jones?

Posted by pamsterdam on 2007-06-12 10:46:00 +0000

Pam Ham Clam Spam Not fun being a fat little girl named Pam. Sayin'.

Posted by virtue on 2007-06-12 11:50:19 +0000

Bureaucracy is generally inconvenient, and the inconveniences generally have very little to do with what most of us would consider to be rational things. Thus, not doing something because it would make it inconvenient to deal with bureaucracy isn't really a winning argument for me.

Posted by G lib on 2007-06-12 12:17:43 +0000

There was a period in my life that I was called Gidunda, and the most horrifying 'Biggie'.

Posted by virtue on 2007-06-12 12:23:45 +0000

Question to mom: How often was dealing with bureaucracy more difficult than it needed to be because we all don't have the same last name? Reply: Once we got your birth certificate - which required a court case/decision from the Supreme Judicial Court in which we were not named plaintiffs but did provide an affidavit; it was part of a bigger battle to require the various Town Clerks to allow women to keep their birth names and the right to choose whatever name you want for yourself and child so long as there was no intent to defraud anyone - I don't think we ever had any problem. You do know that you had a passport before you had a birth certificate, since the decision didn't come down until August 1977 and we went to Ireland in July. That was a small hassle, but I went into the passport people with affidavits from the doctor who delivered you to say that you were born in the US and the people at Infants and Other People to say that you were generally known by all and sundry as [Virtue], so we didn't have any problem other than the need to produce additional documents. By the time you got to Devotion, more than 50% of the students there came from some sort of "non-traditional" families - although what could be more "traditional" than Brownies and piano lessons and eating dinner all together and going to church on Sunday and having Grandpa for dinner regularly?

Posted by ConorClockwise on 2007-06-12 12:44:27 +0000

She's quite a chyck, I tell yah.

Posted by Propagandatour on 2007-06-12 13:16:03 +0000

I was "Boom-Ba-Ba Becky." Like a chant. That was a lot of fun.

Posted by G lib on 2007-06-12 13:23:13 +0000

I'll put my junk in a box for you, burkee!

Posted by tgl on 2007-06-12 13:46:30 +0000

"Infants and Other People" A+

Posted by tommy on 2007-06-12 13:50:20 +0000

This is fascinating. My birth certificate might have a forgery on it, then. My mom and my biological father split up before I was born. His last name is falsely stated as "Walsh" on my birth certificate. I always assumed this was a mistake by the Billerica town clerk. I now wonder if this was a deliberate forgery by my mom because of the problems addressed by that lawsuit. (I was born in '72).

Posted by Miriam on 2007-06-12 14:44:03 +0000

One of my best college friends isn't sure if he was born on October 2 or 3; the date is smudged and his mom can't remember.

Posted by Miriam on 2007-06-12 14:46:21 +0000

Seems like many "ladies" in the American spotlight could've used that trick. Always swing your legs out of the car together, then stand. Certainly would've avoided those embarrassing crotch shots all over the news.

Posted by pamsterdam on 2007-06-12 14:50:16 +0000

I think both Tommy and my husband would disagree with you regarding the "embarrassing" adjective, there, Mir.

Posted by Miriam on 2007-06-12 14:51:18 +0000

Most people can't pronounce my name already.

Posted by tommy on 2007-06-12 15:17:39 +0000

Mom says it was not quite a forgery. They said "Last Name?". She said "Walsh". They assumed the rest, and she didn't correct them.

Posted by G lib on 2007-06-12 15:34:22 +0000

Was it just a random name she picked? Your mom seems like a hot ticket.

Posted by tommy on 2007-06-12 15:49:29 +0000

No, but it's a long and not exciting story. Here it is: 1) Mom is born to Arthur and Dorothy Walsh 2) Arthur is killed (in a bar fight! honest!) when my mom was just a wee lass 3) Dorothy remarries and becomes a McGuiness, Mom stays Walsh 4) Mom marries a Rosinke and gets pregnant (or vice-versa maybe) 5) Marriage is "annulled", Mom reverts back to Walsh 6) Tommy is born as a Walsh 7) Mom remarries and is now a Musik. So, the Walsh name squeezed through from my great-grandfather, even though nobody in between is a Walsh now. But, yes, my mom is a hot ticket.

Posted by pamsterdam on 2007-06-12 16:00:17 +0000

Not terribly long, and rather exciting, Tommy. I love somewhat tangled family histories.

Posted by G lib on 2007-06-12 16:12:38 +0000

Agreed-- thanks for sharing, tommy!

Posted by Miriam on 2007-06-13 11:04:18 +0000

You're spot on; those girls didn't seem embarrassed at all. Still, I don't want to see their coochies.