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Posted by rladew on 2004-09-24 15:44:06 +0000

You can name names and say Rich. I won't get mad. For the record, I am not advocating smear tactics. And while in a so-called moral grey area people like the swiftvets (even if everyones favorite scapegoat Rove is behind them) haven't stolen or even verifiably lied as far as I can tell... My observation is that the democrats constantly point their fingers at the republicans saying "look at what they did! Look at what they did! That's not fair!" instead of focusing more time and energy on their own physical platform. Not to cheapen the debate or oversimplify the political future of our country, but it does remind me of a popular comedy film from the '80s It brings to mind the scene where Ferris Bueller's sister is bitching to Charlie Sheen about everything Ferris gets away with. the response being that she'd do a better service to herself if she focused more on what she was doing and less on telling on her little brother.

Posted by tgl on 2004-09-24 16:37:04 +0000

If you can't see the lies and half-truths that the SBVT half promulgated, then, you've got blinkers on, sorry. In some way, their false claims are effecting the election. Even though it's a lie that Kerry doctored his action reports to earn medals, some people in this country still believe it. Even though the charges are false, the mud has stuck and the voters view of Kerry is altered in a way that doesn't reflect reality. That being said, the Dems do spend too much time complaining about the dirt. You have to worry about the stuff you can control. How could Kerry control the media coverage of August though? It was completely hijacked by the SBVT claims. The Ferris Bueller analogy is a good one. Maybe Kerry has started to do the right thing this week, in my eyes, which is to pound Bush on Iraq. It goes back to this, if Bush can only be re-elected if the voter is kept away from the reality of Iraq, the reality of the economy and the reality of the so-called war on terror what does that say about his policies?

Posted by frame609 on 2004-09-24 16:55:40 +0000

Still, though, it seems to me that people who believe smears are people who *want* to believe smears.

Posted by tgl on 2004-09-24 18:24:13 +0000

I can see that, ties in with the whole "Beastie Boys are talking for me." deal. Or is that completely different? Maybe it's my worrying that people will take the SBVT claims at face value, and Rich et al. are worried that people will believe the B.Boys without critical thought. We should stop worrying about other people... Bald faced lies from the SBVT are not the same as a statement of opinion from the B. Boys.

Posted by rladew on 2004-09-24 18:36:38 +0000

That's a pretty fair statement. I do get riled up when 527's such as moveon.org can paint Bush as Hitler.. that seems pretty unfair too, but my mom did teach me that 2 wrongs dont make a right..... I hope you guys dont think Im a right wing gun nut in love with the swifties.... however, I just get curious about stuff and I need to ask questions just as you all do....

Posted by frame609 on 2004-09-24 18:44:26 +0000

Your questions make everybody think about stuff, Rich, which is good. Well, everyone except Adrock. He already knows all this stuff.

Posted by dawnbixtler on 2004-09-24 19:19:02 +0000

1) I am willing to cede that the USA might be safer with a democratic Iraq, where we put a proven USA friend in charge, Ilyad Allawi. I suppose there would then be less of a Iraqi Nationally organized terrorist threat. But the same is true (even more so?) of Syria, Iran, etc. Even China. If we took over China and stopped the oppression, I guess the USA might be safer. 2) I am willing to cede that when Cheney says, "A Kerry presidency will lead to another terrible terrorist attack," and "The Kerry campaign is undermining our work in Iraq," he has the right to say it. He is just trying to win an election and build his campaign. 3) I am willing to cede that when Bush, his brother, and the neo-con Hawks stopped the Florida recounts, they were simply playing politics, and their halt of democracy was a valliant effort to get into the white house. Well, I find it funny that these exact ideas were being thrown around Germany in 1932 and 1933, and things didn't go so well. Oh wait, Rich, is that still unfair?

Posted by tgl on 2004-09-24 20:50:47 +0000

The moveon.org website was soliciting ads for the 2004 election campaign. They let all submitted ads be viewable on the web without prior screening. Someone made the ad comparing Hitler and Bush and posted it to the website. When it was noticed by moveon.org, the offending ad was removed. MoveOn PAC, the 527, streneously opposed the ad and did not, does not endorse the message. The idea that it actively endorsed that message is another false claim by the Bushies. Their failing was to have a lousy submission process for advertisements. Apparently, however, people like the creators of the ad and dawnbixtler don't think the comparison is much of a stretch.

Posted by rladew on 2004-09-24 21:49:19 +0000

No, its not unfair to make as many parallels to Nazi Germany as you want. For me personally, its hard to believe, but if people want to call Bush a muss murdering dictator, have at it. I'm pretty confident it wont hold water.

Posted by rladew on 2004-09-24 21:50:15 +0000

muss murder. love that edit button...

Posted by dawnbixtler on 2004-09-24 22:39:38 +0000

Who called Bush a mass murdering dictator?

Posted by rladew on 2004-09-24 22:54:33 +0000

those were my words about Bush. Hitler was a mass murdering dictator, No? Move On.org had the the brillant idea of allowing people to post stuff depicting Bush as Hitler, No?

Posted by dawnbixtler on 2004-09-25 00:46:02 +0000

"Hitler was a mass murdering dictator, No?" No, not in 1932! "Move On.org had the the brillant idea of allowing people to post stuff depicting Bush as Hitler, No?" The First Amendment had this brilliant idea. I can post stuff depicting Bush as Hitler in millions of places. But everyone knows moveon.org did not support this sentiment (whether its valid or not), so why bother bringing it up? Again the GOP clouding of the facts!!!!!