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Posted by uncle on 2004-11-01 00:54:51 +0000

And qouting myself

This was at the bottom of another very long thread. I admired my own writing far to0 much to let it get burried there. Plus I am just looking for the oppurtunity to have someone slug me in the gut for my own Narcissistic Personality Disorder. "And as a final point that I pose directly to the people that are ready to stick with Bush, I interject an ethical appeal: http://www.newswise.com/articles/view/507991/ http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20041028/ts_nm/iraq_deaths_dc_2 Just summarizing the above, estimates range from 10k to 100k civilian Iraqis dead as a result of this war (funny how that does not get a lot of publicity from the so called â€˜liberalâ€™ press). Now considering: -no WMDs, no Al Qauida connection, no immanent threat- thus no substantive reason to conduct the war- -no effort given to protect hospital, schools, food supplies and power plants-thus no effort to minimize the plight of the innocent caught up in this The burdens of these deaths should therefore be squarely placed on the shoulders of our leader. Can you conscionably vote for someone who has been responsible for so many needless deaths and shows not the slightest sign of remorse or acknowledgement of Iraqi civilian death, neither acknowledgement of his mistakes, nor the wherewithal to take the steps to make it better? Even if getting rid of Saddam was a good reason to go to war, a surgeon tasked with removing gangrene from your finger, who subsequently amputates your whole arm, should not be allowed to practice medicine. The conduct of this war places Bush in the category of war criminal, not world leader. If Kerry had no hope of getting other countries to buy in, if no other leader trusted him, if he had no experience in foreign affairs, I would still be forced by moral principal to place my vote with whoever was most likely to exorcise the ethically void man that sits in the White House today."

Posted by uncle on 2004-11-01 00:56:22 +0000

Christ, you'd think that I could get my spelling correct in the title of my first topic posting, but nooooo.......

Posted by dawnbixtler on 2004-11-01 03:22:20 +0000

The "liberal press" label has almost disappeared, and only the ultra-right use the term anymore. 100,000, civilians eh? Iraq won't get an apology from GWBush.

Posted by uncle on 2004-11-01 16:00:04 +0000

Since I am new to this forum, I'm not always sure who the pseudonyms are. Who is dawnbixtler?

Posted by dawnbixtler on 2004-11-01 16:21:45 +0000

SWF, 5'6", dark brown hair, green eyes. I enjoy fine dining, good movies, reading books by the fireplace, and long walks on the beach.

Posted by tgl on 2004-11-01 16:27:20 +0000

100,000 is a little high, the ~15,000 number from www.iraqbodycount.net is probably more realistic (and realistically disturbing). I find uncle's moralistic outlash refreshing, however, I'm not entirely sure Bush is devoid of ethics. Bad decisions, inability to question himself, incompetent managerial style, uncurious, all those things. I gotta hope he's disturbed by the chaos in Iraq, but it's not in his political interests to show it. Not sure Kerry would pass similarly stringent moral test (I'd like to see him be given the opportunity, though). Then again, are uncle's concerns that stringent?

Posted by uncle on 2004-11-01 18:28:03 +0000

Very helpfull

Posted by uncle on 2004-11-01 18:33:34 +0000

I guess I don't have that much trouble in believing that the numbers are significantly higher than the Iraq body count website because of the way that they are tabulted. I think that this site shows the absolute minimum because it tabulates individual deaths as reported by news sources. Which leaves a whole load of people that have died in ways that are not reportable such as starvation or disease due to lack of services- or that have passed below the radar because the were buried in rubble- or one of many other possibities. I think it is fair to assume that innocent war casualties are going to be fairly scarcely reported in a third world situation. Of course as seen in the light of comparison, going with the 15k number, those 15k people did no more to deserve death then the 3k that died on 911. Makes me feel like shit to pay taxes this year.

Posted by tgl on 2004-11-01 18:57:36 +0000

"Makes me feel like shit to pay taxes this year." ...A Republican! Seriously, though, America's problem: we hold very little regard for the death of non-white people.

Posted by rladew on 2004-11-01 19:09:54 +0000

the whole alias thing IS a bit silly IMHO but im not one to Out anyone intentionally... so... I'm Rich Ladew and: If you can't respect that, your whole perspective is whack Maybe you'll love me when I fade to black

Posted by rladew on 2004-11-01 19:11:31 +0000

apparently we are disregarding all of the friendly mass graves Sadaam's regime produced in Iraq when it was an Oasis of peace..... _______________________________ If you can't respect that, your whole perspective is whack Maybe you'll love me when I fade to black

Posted by uncle on 2004-11-01 19:18:02 +0000

Again I say, lets look at what our leaders have been doing and not deflect our leaders failures by pointing at other problems. On that premis in response I make note that much of the chemicals used to do that killing were provided to Sadaam by our presidents- republicans I believe. And again I say, like the gangrene in your finger, its good that Sadaam is gone, but not at the cost of your whole arms, and not being that Bush left a gaping, pussing, festering stump wound at your shoulder. We need a new doctor.

Posted by tgl on 2004-11-01 19:23:51 +0000

I have yet to be answered on this point: Do you really believe that the President would have been given the authority to invade, let alone the support of popular opinion, if the only reason to go to war was the suffering of the Iraqi people? Secondly, there is just as great suffering in Sudan and Uganda, right now. The most we offer these people are a few support airplanes. The impetus for the invasion was not the suffering of human beings. Please don't imply that it was.

Posted by dawnbixtler on 2004-11-01 22:37:24 +0000

Rladew, that is not the reason we invaded Iraq! It was WMD.

Posted by uncle on 2004-11-01 22:48:29 +0000

Let's invade Aruba! I hear that their bartenders are underpaid.

Posted by dawnbixtler on 2004-11-02 00:30:05 +0000

But oversexed...

Posted by rladew on 2004-11-02 04:28:53 +0000

a perverse part of me wishes that you guys get what you want and we stop being proactive in places like Iraq, take more polls and see how people feel about us all over the world. Of course I dont think we went to Iraq for any other reason than for the prosperity of the United States. If you guys think Sadaam was done fucking with us and wouldn't have gotten stronger, be my guest. So all the WMDs are in Syria now. Who cares? You dont think they were shooting off bang snaps and pop guns in Desert Storm do you? What about all the Scud missles and the like? You guys are absolutely right that it probably woldnt have flied with the American public if they laid out all their cards out on the table. If you guys choose to believe there were absolutely no WMD's, I certainly respect that. I happen to believe they are still well hidden somewhere, I have no proof of this, but my opinion is still a valid one! _______________________________ If you can't respect that, your whole perspective is whack Maybe you'll love me when I fade to black

Posted by rladew on 2004-11-02 04:30:46 +0000

If Sudan and Uganda pose a palpable threat to us, lets go after them next! _______________________________ If you can't respect that, your whole perspective is whack Maybe you'll love me when I fade to black

Posted by tgl on 2004-11-02 13:07:02 +0000

Iraq did not pose a palpable threat. I have proof of this!

Posted by Miriam on 2004-11-02 15:01:06 +0000

I got this today from a professor at the Kennedy School. A friend of his living in Africa sent it. Dear Dave and Jane, I have been meaning to make contact for some time now and finding all sorts of hurdles every time I make a mental note to do so. Then Election Day in the US has come. I could not pass up this opportunity to ask for an early Christmas gift for many of us in the rest of the godforsaken world. Please folks, give us the comfort of knowing that there is a human being in the White House. It does affect us if we want it or not! I hope you are both well - and thriving as always. I expect we will be seeing you Jane, in Spain later this month. We will know then, if you folks obliged the rest of the world. Take care and it does make sense to stay in touch you know? Best from all of us out here! Ezra

Posted by tgl on 2004-11-02 15:23:12 +0000

Sorry, but we don't care what people in Africa think. They should elect their own president, get there own army and then try to change our minds.

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And qouting myself