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Posted by tgl on 2004-11-10 19:22:34 +0000

My understanding has always been that the PATRIOT Act has not lead to a _successful_ prosecution of a terrorist. Maybe that Lackawanna cell was arrested through use of some of the information sharing and loosened wiretapping provisions, but I don't think any of them have been convicted yet. While it's true that the PATRIOT Act allows for investigations into libraries that most people find distasteful, I don't think the FBI or police departments have made use of that provision. Yet. Conservatices also claim that the death penalty reduces murders, which doesn't hold up to empirical evidence either.

Posted by G lib on 2004-11-10 20:43:20 +0000

Under the PATRIOT act, any librarian, (public, private, university, law, etc.) has the obligation to give out (formerly confidential) patron records to any government agent. Not only that, but they're not allowed to tell ANYONE, including library management, about the incident. Patron records often include name, address, that stuff, but also what books you've checked out, Document Delivery, ILL, credit card info, SS#, and sometimes other tidbits of information that no one would want to give out-- to anyone. Terry, it's possible that the library portion of the PATRIOT act as has not been enacted, but as spelled out, how the hell are we supposed to know if a librarian has been asked? Librarians have a tendency to feel as strongly about the ALA code of ethics [url=http://www.ala.org/ala/oif/statementspols/codeofethics/coehistory/codeofethics.pdf/]ALA code of ethics[/url] as doctors do about the hippocratic oath. Number 3 of the ALA code of ethics is, Quote: III "We protect each library user's right to privacy and confidentiality with respect to information sought or received and resources consulted, borrowed, acquired, or transferred." How would you, as a doctor, feel, if Ashcroft enacted this law that was totally against your hippocratic oath, and then had the gall to call your professional organization of doctors 'hysterical' because you raised awareness about how awful it actually was? It's just plain wrong. On SO many levels. ________________ 100% Riot-Schtuffy!

Posted by G lib on 2004-11-10 20:45:49 +0000

Oh, and, you're all lucky I kept this short-- there's a lot more to it. PS-- I can't wait to get my "Another Hysterical Librarian" button. ________________ 100% Riot-Schtuffy!

Posted by tgl on 2004-11-10 21:51:51 +0000

The Justice Dept. is required to report to Congress (per the PATRIOT Act) how many times these sorts of secret investigations of library patrons has occured during the year. I could be wrong, but I don't think the Justice Dept. has used this provision.

Posted by rladew on 2004-11-11 14:02:54 +0000

we tal ked about this before: I believe dawn's question was [quote] Listening to today's "Connection" with Dick Gordon on Ashcroft's term, one of the guests, Shannon Coffin (former Deputy AG under Ashcroft) said that the Patriot Act has NEVER been used. Is this true?[/quote] a few weeks back I asked if any of you had actually been personally affected by the PATRIOT act. The strongest anti-PATRIOT act argument I've seen the left being able to muster is M Moore driving around in an ice cream truck and also M Moore complaining that a cookie eating anti-war discussion group had been infilitrated by a govt spy. So? were any of the members persecuted? We are making it harder for people who want to fuck with our country to actually be able to do so. If someone wants to see whether Ive been reading Mein Kampf, has it been proven that people checking out books in the library are being persecuted for just that act alone, per se? I havent seen any convincing evidence of this yet. I respect G lib's opinion that it is a little creepy and Orwellian, but that alone is not enough to close the PATRIOT act down as a bad idea if we are preventing more motherfuckers from flying planes into our buildings... _______________________________ “When you’re creating your own shit, man, even the sky ain’t the limit.” Miles Davis

Posted by rladew on 2004-11-11 14:06:53 +0000

But Terry, even if you cant prove PATRIOT it has nailed a terrorist, wouldn't you agree if we put steps in place to make it more difficult to wreak havoc on American soil, that we seperate the terrorist wheat from the chaffe? An amateur might come to the conclusion that its not worth the time and effort to mess with us if he understands what the consequences are.... _______________________________ “When you’re creating your own shit, man, even the sky ain’t the limit.” Miles Davis

Posted by rladew on 2004-11-11 14:10:27 +0000

Dupe posts RULE!

Posted by tendiamonds on 2004-11-11 16:05:10 +0000

No. We are trying to protect our freedom, which is what makes America beautiful. If, in order to protect it, we sacrifice it, then the terrorists win. GW, Homeland Security, PATRIOT _are_ domestic and international terrorists. Not only have we let them into our country, we let them run it.

Posted by uncle on 2004-11-11 17:22:07 +0000

The right to privacy has been upheld in Supreme Court ruling after ruling because it is implied and implicit in several of our amendments. The primary problem with the patriot act is not that the government has the right to subpoena library records or book store records- it always has, as illustrated in the Tattered Cover Book Store case here in Colorado. It is not that the government has the right to engage in wire taps, it always has, or that they have the right to look into you bank records, it always has. The problem is that the Patriot act removes judicial oversight and makes it so that you never have to know that the government is spying on you. The bottom line is we don’t know if the Patriot act is being used. To ask “How are you affected by the Patriot act?” is missing the point. When something is sitting out there that allows the government to violate anyone’s rights without some kind of oversight, our democracy is damaged. If a 23 year old Arab immigrant who has been in the country for three weeks gets abused, we are all damaged. Hoover and McCarthy were real people. The Japanese interment camps did exist in this country. This is not conspiracy theory, these are dark episodes in our country’s history brought on by an ignorant assumption of government benevolence. There is no reason to believe that Ashcroft or those to come after him, or other members of the government, won’t or haven’t abused this thing. Some of the provisions of the Patriot act seem justified, such as its ability to increase communication between the FBI and the CIA. But most of the other powers granted by it already existed, accept that before a judge had to say it was ok, and then at some point in time the government had to tell you that it was spying on you. That is no longer true, and that is the problem.

Posted by rladew on 2004-11-11 17:52:27 +0000

I know were going in circles here, but I still disagree. For a specific example, Since the PATRIOT act was instated, FIDELITY's strict Anti Money Laundering Procedures have gotten even stricter. a few investors here or there will gripe that we are bugging them by having the audacity to ask for a benificiaries ssn or a drivers licensce or something. While yr not going to see anything in the mass media about Fidelity nailing and jailing terrorists, you will also never see 'Fidelity thwarts terrorist with a series of investigative probes for information' Id much rather deter and prevent future acts than give a lunatic the benefit of the doubt. If hes a staunch lunatic and he wants to hurt America, he's going to do it anyways. If he is just starting his terrorist pasttime for fun, he might go to some other country where it is easier to penetrate their defenses. If the government won't leave me alone, I would at least prefer that at least the government will defend me and my family against people who would want to destroy our country. _______________________________ “When you’re creating your own shit, man, even the sky ain’t the limit.” Miles Davis

Posted by uncle on 2004-11-11 18:09:26 +0000

In the same vein, in response to "...the government won't leave me alone...", I ask, what is it that they are doing that is not leaving you alone? I'm not looking to rebut, I just want to understand what you mean. As for the Fidelity thing, if you want to stop money laundering, then institute a plan to stop money laundering that involves oversight. I am not against law enforcement enforcing the law, or investigating crimes. But without oversight there is nothing to stop McCarthy era II. If you need to see what people are doing in Libraries, fine, but let a judge make sure it is legal, and make sure that eventually it becomes public knowledge to all the innocent people, that the government was spying in them. I can't decide on whether the attorney general has been doing a good job if I don't know what he has been doing. If I can't tell how officials are behaving then I can't know who to vote for. The activities of our government with regards to private citizens must be transparent except in the most dire of situations. That is a fundamental premise of democracy.

Posted by tgl on 2004-11-11 18:44:22 +0000

The problem isn't the provisions that make it easier for the FBI & CIA to work together to find terrorists. It's the secrecy around the provisions, the lack of oversight. For someone who distrusts the government when it comes to money, I'm surprised you're so blaise when it comes to knowing when the government is sticking it's nose into a person's affairs. Like I said before, I believe that the death penalty does not reduce heinous crimes; I doubt that greater investigative powers will deter organizations like al Qaeda from trying to harm us. To be sure, the FBI & CIA do need to work together better in order to stop terrorist plots before they happen.

Posted by dawnbixtler on 2004-11-11 20:16:48 +0000

Sorry rladew, but if you feel government needs to protect against terrorist attacks before giving people the benefit of the doubt, then either ammend the Bill of Rights or leave the country. "Live free or Die" and "Give me liberty or give me Death" are not simply sound bites; these are what the country was founded on. tendiamonds is right -- take away some of our freedoms and civil rights and the terrorists win...