WWW.RIDESIDE.NET

Posted by G lib on 2007-10-26 14:07:48 +0000

Pamsterdam: you rock.

Posted by Miriam on 2007-10-26 14:08:28 +0000

I enjoy being an aunt. That's not to say I wouldn't have kids of my own, I just want to share the responsibility with the man who made them with me. I've yet to meet that man. Feel free to send one, or several potentials, my way! (men, not kids)

Posted by G lib on 2007-10-26 14:29:27 +0000

I will try to email you off-list my long, drawn out feelings about the subject that are probably not interwebz fodder. The short answer is that I noticed that I had a biological clock after my fucking sister produced these ovary jumpstarters:

Posted by virtue on 2007-10-26 14:57:56 +0000

Fucking indeed.

Posted by G lib on 2007-10-26 15:15:56 +0000

Was that a comment about the conjugal habits of my sister or the cuteness of my family's progeny?

Posted by virtue on 2007-10-26 16:42:44 +0000

Conjugal habits, indeed.

Posted by tgl on 2007-10-26 15:38:55 +0000

It's wicked fun.

Posted by jbcardinale on 2007-10-26 17:16:48 +0000

Maybe some day getting an email from your child like this will make your day....for now. "What's up Pop? I think you called me last night or was it two nights ago? But just letting you know that I've been up on the World Series and it's sick. I'm just scared of the next generation of bandwagon fans this World Series produces. Schools dead easy kid. Got an A- on my Comparative Politics Midterm, 98% on my Politics in the U.S. Midterm, and an A on my first College Writing paper. I also had a meeting about next semester today and apparently my APs netted my 18 credits. That in addition to my 15 that I got from the Fall semester puts me up there with Sophomores so I might have to take a semester off to party or maybe come up to Boston and do something productive like work on a Political campaign. If shits this easy I might double major in Law or Economics or something or try and graduate early. Maybe do a summer abroad for credit my sophomore year."

Posted by tgl on 2007-10-26 17:22:24 +0000

POTD

Posted by pamsterdam on 2007-10-26 17:47:18 +0000

We have nephews. They're awesome. And not ours. When the oldest pooped on the garage door, all we had to do was giggle and tell on him. Thing is, kids are adorable. It's fun to give them presents and dress them up in cute clothes. And they say funny things that almost make me wet my pants. But are those reasons to have them? I've been asking friends over here these questions, and the answers have been - frankly - bizarre. They range from "It's your duty as a married couple!" to "Your mother-in-law wants more grandchildren and your nephews want cousins!" to "No one will ever love you like your kids will!" And... I dunno. Are those good reasons? Am I a freak for asking these questions?

Posted by tendiamonds on 2007-10-26 18:19:30 +0000

I always knew I wanted kids. I had them by accident. They're really fun. In retrospect, my prekid life, that I gave up a lot of when I had critters, was pretty lame, and I rarely miss it.

Posted by G lib on 2007-10-26 18:20:45 +0000

Here's a modified version of what I wrote to Pamsterdam. I thought it would be okay for public consumption. My story: When I was 18 and was diagnosed with my chronic disease, I heard that any child I birthed had had a 50% chance of developing the disease, and so I decided then and there not to have kids. Maybe when I was 40 (like REALLY OLD) I would consider adoption. But then, being a parent at all really was what 'boring people' did, so I never really thought about it. Fast forward to me at age 29 or 30, in a LTR with Chippy, we had just picked up Lila (our cat) from the pound a few months earlier. I was in Market Basket (model UN) and saw this European-looking woman pushing a double stroller with a set of Chinese twins. Light dawned on my own Marblehead, MA, I could totally do that! We could bring home a set of Chinese twins as a pet for Lila! I went home and told Peter, and whenever we talked about having children, we talked about "our Chinese twins." When my sister Africa found that we considered adoption, she said that there were plenty of Chadian twins available in the orphanage down the street from her, so now we talk about "bringing a set of Chadian Twins home as a pet for Lila for Christmas" It's kind of a joke, but not entirely-- we are both sure we could love a kid that doesn't look like us. But adoption is hard and scary and expensive. Fast forward to 2 years later, My sister Germany starts having babies, and my lord, I have to physically restrain myself from stealing one of them. You think I'm joking. Germany I think felt bad for me, and asked her husband if he thought it would be okay if she surrogated a baby for me (we hadn't talked about this before hand), and he said "Why can't she just have her own? She can do it. But if you want to, sure, go ahead." So she offered it to me in all seriousness as an option. (can you tell Africa and Germany are worried that we won't ever get around to producing children in one way or another?) Now later on, I find out that the likelihood of having a baby with my disease is pretty low, and managing my disease through a pregnancy is actually pretty easy because of some of the tools they've come out with in the past couple of years. However, although I'm working very hard on becoming healthier, it'll be a couple of years before I'll be a good idea for me to birth a baby, based on my general physical state. So right now, Chippy and I lavish attention on Lila and our garden, and I guess you could call it 'nesting.'

Posted by G lib on 2007-10-26 18:22:32 +0000

Oh, snap! You meant, "why parent" rather than "why haven't you parented!!!" Now I'm going to have to re-write my whole essay. D+ for GLib

Posted by pamsterdam on 2007-10-26 18:28:01 +0000

The best answer I've heard yet, 10D. Thanks.

Posted by pamsterdam on 2007-10-26 18:31:32 +0000

Oh my God, did you think I was chastising non-breeders?!!! No, we're just freaking out about whether or not we want to do this, because, y'know, we're not getting any younger. But then again neither of us really likes making decisions which can't be changed at a later date. Choosing a restaurant for a meal out easily takes days of thoughtful discussion and research. I sincerely apologise to anyone who thought I was in any way looking askance at non-parental types. Or parental types, for that matter. Breeder, please! G, you always get an A in my class.

Posted by G lib on 2007-10-26 18:37:31 +0000

Oh noes! I sent you an email and also posted a modified version of it below all about how we're in the same boat as you. I just realized I didn't answer your question, in the end, despite my 8 pages of essay. I don't think anyone could have taken your OP as chastisement. And I would get an A in your class, because I'd be sitting front and center with an apple.

Posted by pamsterdam on 2007-10-26 18:43:43 +0000

Big snuggly hugs, G. Thank you for writing such a heartfelt response. I was pretty worried that posting on this topic might be considered crass. But I guess we're all getting to that age that we used to think was old. And honestly isn't. As a side-note, my mother was 42 when I was born. I had spaced on your disease - I guess because you take care of yourself and are pretty damn responsible. And because of another Pamsterdam brain-fart. They happen more than I'd like... So you have the instinct now, the urge to raise children? People here who have babies keep handing them to me, I guess thinking that I'll suddenly be overcome with the desire to have one, but it hasn't happened. And I guess that's something that worries me. When I was a kid, I always thought that having a kid would be a decision I'd make based upon the feelings of my future husband. Who, at that time, I was pretty sure would either be Joe Strummer or Prince. I always knew that if I married a guy who wanted kids, we'd have kids, and that would be great. And if I married a guy who didn't want kids, we wouldn't have kids, and that would also be great. So I never really thought about it. Which I guess makes me sound like an idiot. I dunno. Anyway, I never considered what I would do if I married someone who is ambivalent. So... it all seems kind of academic. Hence my rabid desire for advice and stories!

Posted by pamsterdam on 2007-10-26 18:49:56 +0000

I just read your lovely long e-mail, G, and I'll write back tomorrow - right now it's 11:00pm and Huzb is informing me that my presence is required in the bedroom. Ahem. Night night Rideside...

Posted by mahatma chani on 2007-10-26 18:55:31 +0000

G Lib, I think it's an "affliction" not a "disease."

Posted by pchippy on 2007-10-26 19:47:31 +0000

Speaking as someone who graduated from college with a double major at age 19: I think it would be a great idea for jrcardinale to take a year off before his senior year, not after it. Let him take what would otherwise be his junior year to do something interesting--sail around the world, run for State Representative, start up a dotcom, pick grapes in Tuscany, write a novel, whatever. If whatever-it-is-he-does proves to be interesting and fruitful, he can return to it after graduation. If it doesn't, he has his whole senior year to figure out what he DOES want to do after he graduates. And I can personally vouch for the fact that prospective employers tend to be a little freaked out by the underage college grad looking for work.

Posted by G lib on 2007-10-26 21:31:53 +0000

I'm not really into semantics, but the main support and advocacy organization calls it a disease. I guess I prefer the term "chronic illness," generally, but really it should be called "a pain in my ass (literally and figuratively)."

Posted by G lib on 2007-10-26 21:33:12 +0000

Lurker ladies, you are now required to post.

Posted by G lib on 2007-10-26 21:36:16 +0000

L: Screw the ladies! (hah) I'm actually interested in what the boys have to say, so I challenge you to tell me what you think. MF, Ep, Rory, MC, etc. But I'm guessing none of you have the BALLS to respond.

Posted by jbcardinale on 2007-10-27 01:25:56 +0000

Well said, you & jr will have to have a casual conversation of these days.

Posted by Epoisses on 2007-10-27 03:22:40 +0000

My long, drawn out feelings about the subject are probably not interwebz fodder.

Posted by tommy on 2007-10-27 03:35:46 +0000

I'll take that troll! Quick summary: my life is going just totally awesome dude, and so I'm not really too keen on the idea of completely changing it. Let me preface this by saying this is all from my own personal perspective, and I'm not at all trying to say that my feelings on this should apply to anyone but me. So, no offense to Ridesider-parents! For me, the main benefits of fatherhood would come a ways off, say after the kid is 16. Having a grown child is probably totally awesome (and practical, too, as you age and need others to care for you). I can think of positives and negatives that go along with kids say ages 7-16. Life would be completely different for me if I had a 10-year-old, but probably no "better" or "worse". It's the baby/little kid phase where the whole parenting thing really bombs for me. When I see my friends dealing with their baby and try to put myself in their shoes... I can see why parents abandon their kids, or shake them to death. I would hate having a baby. I'm not even kidding when I say I think I'd rather lose a limb. So, I have to ask "is it worth 7 years of hell for the benefits that I'll have in 20 years". Right now, the answer for me is "no". I am still trying to keep an open mind about maybe having kids someday. But I really can't see changing my mind any time soon. And, I'm 35 and not getting any younger. I probably don't want to be a 60-year-old with a high-schooler. So, likely no kids for me. The above is all 'gut feeling' and vague impressions, and my feelings may well change someday. But one thing I'm totally clear on is who gets a say. Me, M, and the hypothetical kid. We only have kids if we both agree that it's a good thing. And, furthermore, only if we think that that we'd make good parents for the kid. For example, I'm not even responsible enough to care for a dog at this point in my life -- so even if we both really really wanted a kid, we shouldn't have one because it would have a lousy father, and that's not fair to the kid. People who don't get any say in it at all: everyone else in the world. Relatives who try to pressure us into having kids are in effect saying "please turn your lives upside down so that your offspring may entertain me when I see you a few times a year".

Posted by pamsterdam on 2007-10-27 06:23:41 +0000

If you feel like sharing privately, please do so. If not, I totally understand.

Posted by pamsterdam on 2007-10-27 06:54:50 +0000

Amen, Tommy. I was nodding along with much of what you wrote, and I'm not ashamed to admit a bit of "YEAH!"ing during your last paragraph. But what if I get to 50 and think, "Why oh why didn't I bite the bullet and have kids when I was still in my 30's?" Or what if Huzb gets to 50, thinks, "Why oh why didn't we bite the bullet and have kids when she was still in her 30's?" and then runs off with some young hottie?

Posted by MF DU on 2007-10-27 09:05:36 +0000

re 10 Diamonds's response: yep. Me too. The other thing is that Mother Nature really doesnt give a #$%^ about my plans. I guess the human race should be thankful for that - The propagation of the species would go nowhere if we controlled it with our wallets and goals.

Posted by tgl on 2007-10-27 13:22:54 +0000

A) Yes. B) No. C) Yes. D) No. I miss my pre-kid life, and I expect to miss this stage of my life when I move on into the next one. I think A) is the crucial one. Both Lara and I wanted children before our relationship started.

Posted by tommy on 2007-10-27 13:50:34 +0000

Question 1: In my experience, the amount of regret I have for past "missteps" depends more on how well my life is going at that point than how bad of a mistake I made. If your life is good, you have no regrets. If not, then you'll find something to regret. Example: I went to grad school for education, thinking I'd want to be a high-school teacher. Taught for a year and didn't like it. Decided to find something else to do instead. That was maybe the low point of my adult life: no money (actually negative money), no place to live, no idea of what else I was going to do instead. I did a lot of regretting! Four wasted years! (1.5 working to save money for grad school, 1.5 in grad school, and 1 teaching) But now that things are going well for me, I hardly ever think about it -- and when I do, it's to laugh about it, not to regret it. The mistake is no different now than it was then, but the level of regret has much changed. So my prediction: if M and I are still living a happy life in 20 years, I'll hardly spent any time thinking about lack of grown kids or missed parenting experiences. If I'm a miserable lonely old man, then I'll probably regret it every day. Question 2: Hopefully you married a decent guy who wouldn't do that! Also, I don't think young hotties in general are so keen on guys in their 50's -- so he probably won't have a chance to do that anyhow.

Posted by tgl on 2007-10-27 14:09:19 +0000

Question 1: It's better to regret something you have done, than to regret something you haven't done. Oh, and, by the way... Question 2: Is the Huzb rich?

Posted by MF DU on 2007-10-27 15:52:17 +0000

I nominate Epoisses's above comments for the next RSN header to follow 'that's when you know you are a bad man'

Posted by MF DU on 2007-10-27 15:55:38 +0000

A+ Thank you for making the Butthole Surfers a requisite point in the many factors to consider upon whether or not one should embark on the adventures of child rearing.

Posted by Corby Trouser Press on 2007-10-27 16:15:35 +0000

he likes his children like he likes his whiskey... 12 yrs old and mixed with coke

Posted by mahatma chani on 2007-10-27 19:15:24 +0000

I love kids. I love giving them back to their parents.

Posted by pamsterdam on 2007-10-27 19:28:50 +0000

Huzb is not rich. I find rich men sexually repulsive. Give me poor men with dirty minds. Hells yeah.

Posted by tgl on 2007-10-27 20:26:00 +0000

...then it's likely young women won't find him attractive when he's 50.

Posted by pamsterdam on 2007-10-28 00:47:32 +0000

I'll admit it's not the most rational of concerns. What if I amend "young hottie" to "woman who wants kids and isn't too old to have 'em"?

Posted by tendiamonds on 2007-10-28 11:04:41 +0000

The Pants and I were just sitting on the couch, sipping coffee, watching the kids run around and play with/near each other. This is not hell. The hell that you see, is what happens when people with kids try to do non-kid activities, ie, everything you are ever there for. This is Schrödinger's cat. I feel the same way you feel about the hell people with kids have, about people with dogs.

Posted by pchippy on 2007-10-28 11:09:23 +0000

tgl, do you really mean that, re regret? And if so, what do you mean by it?

Posted by tgl on 2007-10-28 12:30:00 +0000

That opening line from "Sweat Loaf" has struck me, and stuck with me. Maybe not so much because I subscribe to it, but because of its context within the track. I don't think it's unreasonable though. Certainly, you can take it too far (as you can any other "words to live by"), and probably not the best approach when applied to rearing children. I regret not taking time off when my employer sent me to Japan. I don't regret not buying a house in Plymouth, NH circa 1998 (not sure how capable I was of that, though). I regret living at home for two years after college. If I had bought the house and regretted it, would I be better off than I am now? No. If I had travelled in Japan and regretted it, would I be better off now? Yes. Experience trumps inaction. I think it's a call to action. Let's not forget that this is from the mouth of Gibby Haynes. Don't stand on the sidelines. When you break your leg in a car crash on a road trip from Athens, GA to Memphis, TN while hopped up on whiskey and speed... that's good regret.

Posted by tommy on 2007-10-28 12:45:43 +0000

It's not hell for you. But, I like non-kid activities much much better than I like sipping coffee and watching kids play with each other. I don't even enjoy watching other people's kids play. It's not hell, just boring. If they were my own kids, that would likely be the high point of the week, since it didn't involve changing diapers or trying to feed them or being woken up at 3 in the morning, or being interrupted at all times with questions about why things are the way they are. And when "boring" == "high point of the week", that's hell. [Again, since this is such a personal topic, and since tone is hard to convey when typing let me say that I don't think that my feelings do or should apply to anyone else. I have many friends who are parents, and most of them are truly genuinely happy about being parents. They are not bored watching their kids play. I'm not trying to tell them they're wrong, or that I'm better than they are -- just that it's not for me] If you change from watching the kids to being an active part of the picture, then that's where I might enjoy things. So I probably wouldn't mind having a 10-year-old that I could toss a frisbee to or have a real conversation with, etc. Re: your feeling about dogs. That's why you don't have a dog -- that's cool. But would you feel it inappropriate if friends and politicians were telling you that it was your duty as a suburban homeowner to own a dog? Or if your parents continually pressured you into getting one because they want a granddog to pat when they come and visit?

Posted by tendiamonds on 2007-10-28 13:20:54 +0000

Uh, that was my point about the dogs.

Posted by tommy on 2007-10-28 15:37:04 +0000

Gotcha.

Posted by pamsterdam on 2007-10-28 17:25:06 +0000

Hee hee hee... 'when "boring" == "high point of the week", that's hell.'

Posted by virtue on 2007-10-28 19:35:52 +0000

I used to think "HELLS NO" at the thought of having kids, but now I think "maybe, probably yes." I get a little freaked out by the time factor. A friend of mine is a midwife, and sort of in the same boat as I am (i.e., 31, single and ambivalent), pointed out that your odds of complications, from the irritating to the life-threatening start increasing dramatically after 35 (pretty sure I'm not into adoption, but you never know). So we'll see. Shit, I've been on 10 different SSRIs in the past 4 years. Who knows what could happen in another 4? Plus, my mom is so hard core about *not* pressuring me and my sister into feeling like we have to get married and/or have kids that she gave my sister a complex by saying "it's ok if you never get married, lots of people never get married," so many times that my sister started to think there was something wrong with herself.

Posted by tgl on 2007-10-28 21:51:07 +0000

apropos, kinda.

Posted by MF DU on 2007-10-29 00:30:31 +0000

Posted by pamsterdam on 2007-10-29 03:20:46 +0000

Awesome. Both cool and very sweet. Plus he brings up the angst that IS Hot Topic. Kids these days, they get everything handed to them on a plate. Remember when getting fishnets meant talking your friend's Mom into taking you to Boston and then trying to get away from her so you could hightail it into Hubba Hubba unnoticed? These days, they go to the mall. (Shakes fist)

Posted by ConorClockwise on 2007-10-29 03:37:12 +0000

Great post, V.

Posted by virtue on 2007-10-29 09:37:27 +0000

Thanks, CC.

Posted by pamsterdam on 2007-10-29 10:20:56 +0000

Thanks, Virtue. The number 35 is looming over my head as well. Truth be told, I'm now less than 9 months away from my 35th birthday. My mother also was very laid-back about the grandkids question, and always used to tell me that she wouldn't mind at all if I never gave her any. But after she got her terminal diagnosis, the truth came out - she'd always wanted grandchildren. And, at that point, she had less than 3 months to live. Hands up who feels like a failure! Alright. Your mother is being incredibly supportive and loving. I think it's natural to second-guess her feelings, but sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. And even if it isn't a cigar, there's not a whole lot we can do about it.

Posted by G lib on 2007-10-29 10:42:57 +0000

I don't know if I 'regret' very much in my life. However, I do look back quite a bit and say "What the fuck was I thinking?" or "Doing ____________ was so meaningful, and really enriched me as a person. It's like embarrassment with a hint of pride, like a mostly covered-up neck tattoo. I told CTP last week on the H3W porch, "Sometimes I feel like I spent the last 10 years building an arsenal of stories to tell at parties. I don't know if that's a good thing." And CTP said "Well, at least you had fun doing it!"

Posted by virtue on 2007-10-29 11:52:18 +0000

No--don't feel like a failure! Not fair to you at all. Also, 35 isn't a cut and dried number--so many other factors are at work. Good luck to you & huzb, whatever you decide.

Posted by pamsterdam on 2007-10-29 12:19:45 +0000

Thanks, V - I'm sure you're right. x

Posted by G lib on 2007-10-29 12:43:29 +0000

Too true. Germany sister says no one there even thinks about babies until their in their early 40s. There are many things that my mama and papa would have wanted for/from us that they just have to deal with not having. But I blame them. It's their fault for producing us and nurturing us in the manner that they did. As in, hmmmm... let's think about why I have TWO ex-pat sisters. It couldn't have been something in our upbringing? Your mama produced and nurtured an interesting, thoughtful, caring, wonderful, smaht daughter. If she had wanted immediate grandkids, she would have raised you to be a teen mom. It was her fault.

Posted by pamsterdam on 2007-10-29 13:02:44 +0000

What an awesome take, G. Thank you - I needed that. Remind me to tell you about the family gravestone. I promise - it's funny and apropos. Yes, even I have things I won't post on the interwebz. The mind boggles.

Posted by tendiamonds on 2007-11-30 14:14:17 +0000

Posted by G lib on 2007-11-30 14:40:19 +0000

My Goodness!

Posted by G lib on 2007-11-30 14:43:38 +0000

Oh, fine... Fat Baby's first solid food: Fairy God-daughter halloween: Fairy God-daughter in her birthday outfit (including BTO t-shirt I made her)

Posted by tgl on 2007-11-30 14:45:01 +0000

Brooklyn East India Pale Ale! ...oh, are there kids in these photos?

Posted by G lib on 2007-11-30 14:49:54 +0000

And gratuitous baby camping photos:

Posted by tgl on 2007-11-30 15:05:21 +0000

Posted by tendiamonds on 2007-11-30 15:17:14 +0000

It was a midatlantic beer of some sort, I don't remember what, an ESB of some sort.

Posted by ConorClockwise on 2007-11-30 15:40:05 +0000

Posted by dyedon8 on 2007-11-30 16:52:01 +0000