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Posted by frame609 on 2004-10-01 17:03:14 +0000

Next time, Kerry will be a little bit more emotional and attack more, I think. Man, did Bush ever look dumb.

Posted by G lib on 2004-10-01 19:09:28 +0000

And angry.

Posted by rladew on 2004-10-01 21:20:28 +0000

NYT called him "Petulant"

Posted by rladew on 2004-10-03 04:02:29 +0000

gotta hand it to ya here gentlemen: Kerry came off much better than Bush here. Much more careful consideration and intelligent responses to questions. Personally, the whole thing was way to scripted and staged to grab my attention for long, but Bush will have to do better (at least as far as debates are concerned) if he wants all of these undecided voters to vote for him...

Posted by tgl on 2004-10-04 14:26:11 +0000

Great quote from Oliphant yesterday: "Undecided voters are those voters who have decided that they are open to changing the incumbent." I'm paraphrasing, but the emphasis is Oliphant's.

Posted by dawnbixtler on 2004-10-04 14:30:47 +0000

Listened to a little Howard Stern on Friday morning driving to Lake Champlain. His debate soundbites were priceless: Female undecided voter, "I dunno, I'm gonnato wait til the third debate. I want to see whose a better statesman." Stern: Great, another genius. Read a book. Read the newspaper!

Posted by rladew on 2004-10-04 14:55:59 +0000

I can't STAND Oliphant... How the hell does he know who people are going to vote for?

Posted by tgl on 2004-10-04 15:13:57 +0000

He doesn't know! Where in that quote does he claim every undecided voter is going to vote for Kerry? Do you disagree that undecided voters are open to the possibility of not voting for Bush?

Posted by dawnbixtler on 2004-10-04 19:17:14 +0000

Anyone see SNL? "It's hard work. A lot of people are working really hard. We're gonna get the job done in Iraq, cause we have resolve and we work hard... We'll come in Saturdays.... Eat in... It's hard work..." So good.

Posted by dawnbixtler on 2004-10-04 19:18:58 +0000

Unless it's strickly a bias, how can you dislike Oliphant? He does cartoons AND researched essays. Great stuff...

Posted by rladew on 2004-10-04 20:38:27 +0000

Just like hating brussel sprouts or the smell of cooked Sauerkraut or hearing Matchbox 20... personal bias my friend. I dont have a smear campaign ready for him, Im not out to change him, I just dont like him, probably the same as you guys not liking George F Will.... (except when he writes about Baseball...)

Posted by rladew on 2004-10-04 20:40:39 +0000

[quote:3385c900e4]Do you disagree that undecided voters are open to the possibility of not voting for Bush? [/quote:3385c900e4] Of course not, but it seems less like a thoughtful argument and more like hopeful, unsubstantiated speculation to my ears...

Posted by tgl on 2004-10-04 20:51:01 +0000

http://www.mysterypollster.com/main/2004/10/the_incumbent_r.html What if the polling data backs up this assertion?

Posted by dawnbixtler on 2004-10-04 23:40:20 +0000

I like George Will. He actually argues a neo-con perspective. He also broke the recent story that the GOP dictates Ayad Allawi's schudule and speeches, destroying Allawi's cred....

Posted by rladew on 2004-10-05 03:21:52 +0000

Do you think George Will is going to vote for Kerry? I love how you guys are painting Kerry as more conservative than Bush right now...

Posted by rladew on 2004-10-05 03:25:57 +0000

BTW as far as pollsters calling me (or asking me outside a voting place or whatever) are concerned: I either: 1) Ask pollsters to "hold on a minute" and then go in the other room and forget about the line like I always do with telemarketers (this is a brillant strategy - let the telemarketing companies waste their nickles waiting for you to come back to the phone) 2) Tell them Im voting for Kerry or Nader (Why tell the truth? That's No fun.... 3) Hang Up On Them

Posted by tgl on 2004-10-05 03:52:16 +0000

I think I posted on another topic that I'm not arguing that Kerry is conservative. I'm arguing that Bush _is_not_ conservative. Maybe George F. Will won't vote for Bush. That doesn't mean he's going to vote for Kerry.

Posted by tgl on 2004-10-05 03:58:43 +0000

Cranks like rladew are part of the margin of error, I'm not too shaken that polls do not reflect reality. Reminds me: My mother explaining to a telemarketer for windows that we lived in an underground house.

Posted by frame609 on 2004-10-05 07:01:47 +0000

Man, did Leona really do that?

Posted by rladew on 2004-10-05 11:33:42 +0000

[quote:2490bffe8d]Cranks like rladew are part of the margin of error, I'm not too shaken that polls do not reflect reality.[/quote:2490bffe8d] I love it! call me the crankster of love!

Posted by tgl on 2004-10-05 13:38:32 +0000

We're all cranks together.

Posted by dawnbixtler on 2004-10-05 15:55:55 +0000

I would bet that George F. Will will vote for Kerry. He is a realist first and a Republican second...

Posted by rladew on 2004-10-05 16:43:15 +0000

we'll see....

Posted by dawnbixtler on 2004-10-05 19:56:31 +0000

No we won't. I doubt very much he'll reveal who he voted for, especially if it's Kerry. He fills that Conservative yet pragmatic role that Newsweek needs.

Posted by rladew on 2004-10-05 21:05:40 +0000

From what I know of Will, I find it very hard to believe he would vote for Kerry or any Democrat for that matter. The "vote for the man and not the party idea" is outdated. I thought it was funny you guys were posting articles about how the republican party is outdated. It doesn't matter that Bush specifically hasn't been a dictionary definition of conservative and that there are deficits and steel tarrifs and farm subsidies and corporate welfare etc... Traditionally, IMHO, republicans / conservatives tend to at least attempt (which sometimes they dont do a stellar job of either) of sticking as close to the constitution as possible. Democrats, again IMHO, tend to take more liberties with the constitution. In the rare event a Democrat was more protective of the Constitution, I suppose I would consider voting for one... but I dont see that happening when Kerry asks to take control of H. care away from private industries so that the gov't can regulate it. I don't see that with him rolling back the tax cuts. I dont see that with him making empty promises to soldiers about when they can expect to be out of Iraq. Of course I'll never know who GF Will votes for, and I get the point you guys are making that economic conservatives are upset with Bush. I'm upset with Bush. But the mess Bush will leave in his wake will be easier to clean up than Kerry's would be IMHO.

Posted by tgl on 2004-10-05 21:22:25 +0000

Supporting an amendment to the Constitution that prohibits personal liberty is not "messing with the Constitution" then?

Posted by tgl on 2004-10-05 21:24:49 +0000

Have you _read_ Kerry's plan yet? In no way does it imply the removal of private companies from the Health Care industry. You can quibble over how the expansions to Medicare coverage might be too costly, but to characterize Kerry's plan as radical socialization of the current Health Care system is flat wrong, sorry.

Posted by tgl on 2004-10-05 21:29:02 +0000

Kerry's plan is to roll back taxes for people making more than $200,000 a year. That's what he said in the debate, right? We need this money to pay for the Iraw War and strengthen Homeland Security now. I'll take a liberal who realizes we need to pay as we go over a conservative who thinks it's OK to mortgage the future of the economy in order to win an election.

Posted by dawnbixtler on 2004-10-05 21:29:11 +0000

"I dont see that with him making empty promises to soldiers about when they can expect to be out of Iraq. I'm upset with Bush. But the mess Bush will leave in his wake will be easier to clean up than Kerry's would be IMHO." I have no idea where you get your news, rladew, but nothing I have read (NYTimes, Boston Globe, Washington Post, NPR, New Yorker, several blogs) supports any of this. "Empty promises" Please! He hasn't even been elected yet!!! I done here...

Posted by tgl on 2004-10-05 21:36:51 +0000

I agree that Kerry saying his plan is to get all troops out of Iraq in four years is a bit reckless. It sends the message that insurgents just need to wait it out. Kerry was very firm last Thursday about the need for the US to not allow Iraq to become a failed state. I'm pretty certain that means he intends to do the job, instead of leaving for the sake of leaving. There is absolutely no evidence that I've seen that Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld et al. have been effective in the occupation of Iraq.

Posted by rladew on 2004-10-05 21:37:21 +0000

I did pepper my statements with IMHO, Terry. You are entitlted to yours just as I am entitled to mine.

Posted by rladew on 2004-10-05 21:39:54 +0000

right, right so here's the old "fiscal child abuse" argument of bullying the country back to higher taxes - nothing is new here - I don't believe that will work, I dont care how many NYT articles or blogs disagree with me......

Posted by tgl on 2004-10-05 21:42:20 +0000

Of course this is my opinion. You're entitled to yours as well. How about this: What is the basis for your opinion that Kerry could "mess up" Iraq? Is your opinion of Kerry's domestic plans based on the content of his plans? It seems that your position is based on your view of party stereotypes. Am I wrong in thinking that is where you are coming from?

Posted by tgl on 2004-10-05 21:47:50 +0000

"fiscal child abuse" So you believe int the strategic use of budget deficits to force decreases in the size of the federal government? That's fine, a valid policy position. This Bush Administration does seem to play along though, seeing as they are increasing spending along with the tax cuts.

Posted by rladew on 2004-10-05 22:11:48 +0000

I apologize if I'm way off base here, but I get the impression that there is an inference here that I am misinformed about US politics, as seen by the constant request from you and Dawn for me to provide a basis for my opinions. The National Journal, which is the most highly respected non-partisan publication in DC has recorded John Kerry, based on all of his voting records in the Senate (at least when he bothers to show up), as having one of the most liberal voting records of any Senator currently in Congress... More so than Kennedy even! I'm a fan of Skinner: Past performance is most indicative of future behavior. Of course none of us have crystal balls, but talk is cheap. Bush doesn't debate well, but who cares, as I said before Im voting more for the party than the man here. Bush hasn't been a great president, but I'm against adding social programs like Kerry's healthcare plan into the mix. We dont need another democrat in the White House1 I feel very strongly about this,and I know I cant convince you guys, but you guys are wrong to think that you are more informed on issues just because there's a website that backs you up....

Posted by tgl on 2004-10-05 22:57:35 +0000

That National Journal "liberalist senator" ranking was based on the year 2003. A year in which Kerry & Edwards were on the campaign trail and missed many votes. As such, they only appeared for important votes, in their opinion. Those types of votes tended to be only the closely divided, partisan issues. No wonder Kerry comes out as more liberal than Kennedy. It's not an accurate representation of Kerry's record. However, yes, the guy is capital 'L' liberal. I guess I'm just disappointed. I'd like to discuss issues, your opinion is pretty clear. I'm sincerely interested in _why_ you have certain opinions. I find that my opinion is constantly changing, that's why I've voted (D), (R), (G), and (L) in the past. Your politics are grounded firmly in the belief in the ideals in the Republican Party, that's fine. Looking for a topic on "The Collapse of Party Politics"...